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Author Topic: Leaf Credo 40 Promo Extended & New Mounts added  (Read 3803 times)
KevinA
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« Reply #20 on: April 01, 2014, 02:06:37 AM »
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Leaf are selling stock just to make money...er yeah it's called business, that's why they make them, to make money.
If the promo has generated a lot of sales to people that have not gone the mf route, it proves one thing, that the desire to shoot mf is strong and price is a barrier (OK that's two things).
 I wonder if the argument of economy of scale would be less of an issue if prices were a lot less. Not a risk Hassy or Phase would want to take, maybe one day their hand will be forced by some other with disruptive intent. A Blackmagic style company for still shooters.
I wonder what it would take to kickstart a simple mf camera with an adaptable lens mount to take all kinds of legacy glass, one that just did the basics. No  inbuilt meter, just aperture shutter speed and iso. An adaptable box with a sensor.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2014, 12:19:39 PM by KevinA » Logged

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« Reply #21 on: April 01, 2014, 02:15:27 AM »
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It would probably take somebody at sony to make a decision to make a bigger than 35mm mirrorless camera with a wide/short lens throat.
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eronald
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« Reply #22 on: April 01, 2014, 07:36:13 AM »
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I can say that the Credo 40 promo has proven to be very suuceesful as it offers a modern, capable and affordable MF solution for many people. I believe that extending it to all mounts will make it even more successful.

BR

Yair

You mean lower prices may generate better sales?  What a pleasant surprise! Maybe you should experiment more to test this novel economic theory.

I do wonder whether the recent change of ownership of Phase is responsible for this unexpected insight ...

Edmund
« Last Edit: April 01, 2014, 07:50:15 AM by eronald » Logged
lance_schad
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« Reply #23 on: April 01, 2014, 07:57:29 AM »
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Edmund,
The promo began on January 30 and the Silverfleet announcement was February 18.
Phase One last year lowered the price of the P40+ bundle to be around the same price about a year back and it proved to be a successful promotion which led to refurbished P40+ bundles being offered by us in the $11k range.
This seems to be a nice price point to allow people to get into medium format and if you already own a medium format body it is even more attractive at $11,495.
It also fits into the business model that Henrick explained in his interview recently of having two product lines with different features and price points.
Also one of the biggest advantages is being able to use the Credo 40 as a trade in later towards a different Phase One or Mamiya Leaf Credo while preserving your original investment.
So I really do not understand the complaining and speculation about lowering pricing . Yes it is to sell more units and make it more available to more photographers. Whats wrong with that since the biggest gripe is MF is too expensive?

Lance

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« Reply #24 on: April 01, 2014, 07:58:08 AM »
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Most cameras steadily drop in price over their retail lifespan, look at the price of DSLR's. Something that is Ģ2700 at launch will drop to Ģ1800 over several months. It's the same with lenses. I'm struggling to see why it should be any different with MFD backs? New products and innovations will be made available all the time and this has an affect on pricing. What was the price history on a P25? They must have halved over their fairly long sales lifespan.
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eronald
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« Reply #25 on: April 01, 2014, 08:13:48 AM »
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Edmund,
The promo began on January 30 and the Silverfleet announcement was February 18.
Phase One last year lowered the price of the P40+ bundle to be around the same price about a year back and it proved to be a successful promotion which led to refurbished P40+ bundles being offered by us in the $11k range.
This seems to be a nice price point to allow people to get into medium format and if you already own a medium format body it is even more attractive at $11,495.
It also fits into the business model that Henrick explained in his interview recently of having two product lines with different features and price points.
Also one of the biggest advantages is being able to use the Credo 40 as a trade in later towards a different Phase One or Mamiya Leaf Credo while preserving your original investment.
So I really do not understand the complaining and speculation about lowering pricing . Yes it is to sell more units and make it more available to more photographers. Whats wrong with that since the biggest gripe is MF is too expensive?

Lance



Who is complaining? What a good idea!  Please let's have more of the same!
I'm sorry if I may have sounded my grouchy self at the beginning, but I really think that lower prices and increased sales are wonderful for everyone involved in MF.

Edmund
« Last Edit: April 01, 2014, 08:20:08 AM by eronald » Logged
Ken R
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« Reply #26 on: April 01, 2014, 11:46:58 AM »
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Who is complaining? What a good idea!  Please let's have more of the same!
I'm sorry if I may have sounded my grouchy self at the beginning, but I really think that lower prices and increased sales are wonderful for everyone involved in MF.

Edmund

Yeah. MF Digital gets a BEATING in this forum. It is constantly being challenged to an inch of its existence and relevance. This Forum crowd is tough. Very tough. I too questioned a lot of things about MF Digital before taking the plunge. Bottom line it is great to have the choice of a larger format with different characteristics. That includes the choice in optics and bodies also (besides the backs). Imagine if there were no digital cameras with sensors larger than 24x36mm and all we had available were integrated digital camera bodies (no backs). That would suck for a lot of people that want something different.

It is awesome to have a lower priced (New) MF Digital option. Heck if I were PhaseOne I would go lower. They can make it up in lens sales (at lower prices also). Entry level is key to having more people commit to a system.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2014, 11:48:42 AM by Ken R » Logged
eronald
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« Reply #27 on: April 01, 2014, 12:39:32 PM »
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Yeah. MF Digital gets a BEATING in this forum. It is constantly being challenged to an inch of its existence and relevance. This Forum crowd is tough. Very tough. I too questioned a lot of things about MF Digital before taking the plunge. Bottom line it is great to have the choice of a larger format with different characteristics. That includes the choice in optics and bodies also (besides the backs). Imagine if there were no digital cameras with sensors larger than 24x36mm and all we had available were integrated digital camera bodies (no backs). That would suck for a lot of people that want something different.

It is awesome to have a lower priced (New) MF Digital option. Heck if I were PhaseOne I would go lower. They can make it up in lens sales (at lower prices also). Entry level is key to having more people commit to a system.

I agree - let's hope Hasselblad and Leica get this invitation - Pentax have already announced they're coming to the party!

Edmund

Update: I just got an email from Capture Integration, for a really extensive Leica S tradein program. Looks like the party is getting underway.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2014, 02:00:01 PM by eronald » Logged
KevinA
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« Reply #28 on: April 01, 2014, 02:32:54 PM »
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Leaf are selling stock just to make money...er yeah it's called business, that's why they make them, to make money.
If the promo has generated a lot of sales to people that have not gone the mf route, it proves one thing, that the desire to shoot mf is strong and price is a barrier (OK that's two things).
 I wonder if the argument of economy of scale would be less of an issue if prices were a lot less. Not a risk Hassy or Phase would want to take, maybe one day their hand will be forced by some other with disruptive intent. A Blackmagic style company for still shooters.
I wonder what it would take to kickstart a simple mf camera with an adaptable lens mount to take all kinds of legacy glass, one that just did the basics. No  inbuilt meter, just aperture shutter speed and iso. An adaptable box with a sensor.
I've been beaten to it, not a cheap option but rather desirable. http://www.alpa.ch/dms/products/cameras/fps/use/ALPA_FPS_internal-use-only_small/ALPA_captions_designpreis_g_rgb.pdf
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Kevin.
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« Reply #29 on: April 02, 2014, 11:19:02 AM »
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As for Leaf, AFAIK they don't exist anymore, although Phase One still prints labels with that tag line.

I've been to their office and saw the people - they still exist.
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UlfKrentz
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« Reply #30 on: April 02, 2014, 12:17:32 PM »
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I've been to their office and saw the people - they still exist.

Of course, and they brought some serious tech to phase after being acquired. Itīs a pitty they are regognized now as the poor manīs phase which does not meet the facts in my opinion. YMMV.

Cheers,

Ulf
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sbernthal
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« Reply #31 on: April 02, 2014, 12:25:39 PM »
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I don't think the Credo is inferior to IQ, and the few missing features are not very significant.
I prefer the Credo buttonless UI which is like the Nexus.

It is my impression though, that there isn't much left of the "secret sauce" that used to be in the color rendition algorythm. It would appear that Phase took all that was good, removed all that was bad, and now the differences between the two brands are very slight. It wouldn't really make sense to do it any differently.

So IMO you could say the soul is dead but the body is alive.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2014, 12:30:06 PM by sbernthal » Logged
eronald
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« Reply #32 on: April 02, 2014, 03:39:00 PM »
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So IMO you could say the soul is dead but the body is alive.

Ok, they've followed the usual path of innovators and turned into  ... just another niche-competent and profitable mainstream zombie.

Edmund
« Last Edit: April 02, 2014, 03:55:46 PM by eronald » Logged
bcooter
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« Reply #33 on: April 02, 2014, 04:28:47 PM »
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ulf,

I don't know any particular facts about Leaf or Phase, but I agree the Leaf to me had a nice interface and Leaf always had an exceptional film like look.

If it wasn't for the lc10 (which was eventually fixed) I would have kept my Aptus forever, but my schedule meant my workflow had to be improved.

If I was buying a back I would go with Leaf, but I wanted a Leica, though I can still process out an older Leaf file and am amazed at how pretty it is.

Edmund,

Sometimes you say some things that floor me.   

Leaf was always the 'photographer's' digital back, and I would be surprised if Phase didn't use Leaf's knowledge of Dalsa and color to improve all of the products.

Once again I don't know the particular facts about any camera company, but I do know that I like the people at Leaf a lot.  They really cared about their product, never acted smug, but had great pride in what they produced.    They also were one of those companies that wrote their own music, didn't do cover band,  and stood behind their equipment.



IMO

BC

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eronald
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« Reply #34 on: April 02, 2014, 06:43:48 PM »
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Yes, Leaf, was one of the greatest innovators in digital photography. Now they seem to be a sub-brand of Phase One.  I'm not saying they are in any way substandard, or defective, I'm saying they were innovative brands but *today* they are vanilla. What innovative feature has been released of late on a Leaf branded back but not on a P1 branded back?

As for not acting smug, yes, Leaf had pride in their work, while C1 were really good at business. Reminds me of another company called Microsoft, who were historically technologically competent, but also spectacularly good at business. BTW, some guy who owns an IQ180 or 280 or something was complaining to me that the Phase software now feels like it's done by Microsoft.

Edmund


Edmund,

Sometimes you say some things that floor me.  

Leaf was always the 'photographer's' digital back, and I would be surprised if Phase didn't use Leaf's knowledge of Dalsa and color to improve all of the products.

Once again I don't know the particular facts about any camera company, but I do know that I like the people at Leaf a lot.  They really cared about their product, never acted smug, but had great pride in what they produced.    They also were one of those companies that wrote their own music, didn't do cover band,  and stood behind their equipment.



IMO

BC


« Last Edit: April 02, 2014, 07:10:14 PM by eronald » Logged
bcooter
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« Reply #35 on: April 02, 2014, 07:08:47 PM »
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Yes, Leaf, was one of the greatest innovators in digital photography. Now they seem to be a sub-brand of Phase One.  I'm not saying they are in any way substandard, or defective, I'm saying they were innovative brands but *today* they are vanilla. What innovative feature has been released of late on a Leaf branded back but not on a P1 branded back?

Edmund


I don't see any real innovation in photography, since the RED 4k Raw camera, or maybe in 43 mirrorless cameras with evf, face detection, etc.

But, I do see Leaf going the direction as all products, a refinement of the brand.   

Nothing new about that.  A Iphone is an Ipod with a phone, a Ipad an large I phone without the phone,etc. etc.

Though I could easily argue this the other way when it comes to innovation.

I think Phase IQ backs are a refinement of the Leaf Brand.

Full screen touch screen (Leaf)

Dalsa Sensor (Leaf)

Improved skin tones and film like look (Leaf)

So when people think that Leaf is the unloved stepchild of Phase I'd say Phase just copied Leaf's playbook.

IMO

BC
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eronald
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« Reply #36 on: April 02, 2014, 07:15:21 PM »
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I don't see any real innovation in photography, since the RED 4k Raw camera, or maybe in 43 mirrorless cameras with evf, face detection, etc.

But, I do see Leaf going the direction as all products, a refinement of the brand.  

Nothing new about that.  A Iphone is an Ipod with a phone, a Ipad an large I phone without the phone,etc. etc.

Though I could easily argue this the other way when it comes to innovation.

I think Phase IQ backs are a refinement of the Leaf Brand.

Full screen touch screen (Leaf)

Dalsa Sensor (Leaf)

Improved skin tones and film like look (Leaf)

So when people think that Leaf is the unloved stepchild of Phase I'd say Phase just copied Leaf's playbook.

IMO

BC
All true. But not copied, just bought out.

BTW, there used to be a joke in the english press that when your company is going through a mutually beneficial merger with another company, the only thing worth knowing is whether yours is "Papa" or Mama".

Edmund
« Last Edit: April 02, 2014, 07:17:13 PM by eronald » Logged
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« Reply #37 on: April 02, 2014, 07:49:25 PM »
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So to sum it up, people who are or were customers of Leaf are satisfied with the brand while people who never were and never will be customers of leaf have complaints.

If I were Yair, I'd rest easy.
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eronald
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« Reply #38 on: April 02, 2014, 09:02:49 PM »
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So to sum it up, people who are or were customers of Leaf are satisfied with the brand while people who never were and never will be customers of leaf have complaints.

If I were Yair, I'd rest easy.

We all agree that some people always have complaints Smiley
Have you met Yair? I think he is based in London. Very laid back Smiley

Edmund
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sbernthal
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« Reply #39 on: April 03, 2014, 02:18:10 AM »
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I don't see any real innovation in photography, since the RED 4k Raw camera, or maybe in 43 mirrorless cameras with evf, face detection, etc.

But, I do see Leaf going the direction as all products, a refinement of the brand.   

Nothing new about that.  A Iphone is an Ipod with a phone, a Ipad an large I phone without the phone,etc. etc.

Though I could easily argue this the other way when it comes to innovation.

I think Phase IQ backs are a refinement of the Leaf Brand.

Full screen touch screen (Leaf)

Dalsa Sensor (Leaf)

Improved skin tones and film like look (Leaf)

So when people think that Leaf is the unloved stepchild of Phase I'd say Phase just copied Leaf's playbook.

IMO

BC


I think we can all agree that Leaf had some good things going, and that which was good was incorporated by Phase into all their products.
Also we have to remember there were some very serious problems with the Leaf products, that it would seem Phase solved them one by one, until now there are pretty much none in the integrated product(s?). I am not at all sure that left to their own devices Leaf would have solved all of these problems.

Some say that Phase was a computer company and not a photographer's company, but what they did is solve and streamline all the "computer" problems that were with the Leaf products and now there are none, so I don't think it's such a bad thing that they are computer oriented or business oriented. For instance, Leaf had very little interest in Windows users, who, whether you like it or not, are the vast majority of users. Colors that were very pretty but totally inaccurate was another problem nobody wanted to talk about. A nightmare of wired communication ended in what would appear as a perfect communication protocol.

I don't know the numbers, but it would seem most if not all Leaf employees still have a job, and no immediate plans have been made public to terminate the old operation, some four years after the acquisition (not a merger). That is very unusual to anyone familiar with IP based acquisitions. However I would insist that the two brands are very similar right now. What is the reason to keep a second operation going, I do not know - perhaps there are a couple of valued engineers working there who refused to relocate and are working on future technologies? Maybe promises were made? Will this second operation still be active in ten years is not very clear to me.
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