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Author Topic: Olympus EM-1 Software Update  (Read 2005 times)
stever
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« on: March 31, 2014, 04:46:14 PM »
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Primarily improves video sound and offers 1st curtain electronic shutter up to 1/320 to reduce shutter shake.

Awfully nice if Panasonic would do the same for GX7 and GM1.
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GLJ
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« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2014, 07:26:57 AM »
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Primarily improves video sound and offers 1st curtain electronic shutter up to 1/320 to reduce shutter shake.

Awfully nice if Panasonic would do the same for GX7 and GM1.

Panasonic already offer a totally electronic shutter option for the GX7 and GM1. For the majority of people, this is already a superior alternative.

Or do you have a very specific scenario where a 1st curtain ES option is preferable?
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stever
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« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2014, 11:27:13 PM »
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Electronic shutter limits ISO to 3200 and does not allow flash. This shouldn't be a problem with first curtain electronic shutter.  All mirrorless cameras should have first curtain electronic shutter - and not hide the problem of shutter shock from users.

It would be nice to shoot ISO 6400 at 1/60 to 1/120 with medium to long lenses without loss of sharpness to shutter shock. 

Shutter shock is a problem in the speed range that is most useful for fill flash.



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Vladimirovich
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« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2014, 07:26:07 AM »
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Panasonic already offer a totally electronic shutter option for the GX7 and GM1. For the majority of people, this is already a superior alternative.

it is a rolling shutter with all its limitations + using using rolling shutter in Panasonic cameras somewhat degrades sensor output (for example Panasonic switches to 10bit output from sensor)


Or do you have a very specific scenario where a 1st curtain ES option is preferable?

as noted - using flash, hi quality 12bit output for stills, shooting moving objects, higher gains (specifically for JPEG shooters)
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BJL
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« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2014, 09:41:10 AM »
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For totally viibration-free, non-mechanical still image exposures, a global shutter would be needed. These exist in video-oriented sensors (both interline CCDs and in some active pixel CMOS sensors) but all implementations so far come at the cost of reduced photosite well capacity, which hurts dynamic range and still image quality.  Basically, the signals in all photosites are moved simultaneously to a "shaded" storage location at one side of each photosite where no further light is detected, and then are read out in the normal sequential way, typically while the next video frame is being accumulated in the light-sensitive part of each photosite.


P. S. The electronic shutter eliminates the problem of shutter shock when it can used,  so "hiding" is as strange choice of word.

P. P. S. Given the recent talk of shutter shock in some mirrorless cameras, how does it compare to either the shutter shock or mirror shock in SLRs, or to the shutter shock in Leica M bodies?  We are in an era of measurement technology so sensitive that what is measurable can go far beyond what is visible in the final product, so I am curious about the quantification of imperfections, not their mere detectability.
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Vladimirovich
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« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2014, 12:43:39 PM »
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P. P. S. Given the recent talk of shutter shock in some mirrorless cameras, how does it compare to either the shutter shock or mirror shock in SLRs, or to the shutter shock in Leica M bodies?  We are in an era of measurement technology so sensitive that what is measurable can go far beyond what is visible in the final product, so I am curious about the quantification of imperfections, not their mere detectability.

mr Kasson spent some time on that = blog.kasson.com

or even more visually clear demonstration of shutter shock effect with E-M1 (no formulas of any kind) for hoi polloi = http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3651827  (using oscilloscope... now having a trace of signal from oscilloscope registered in your raw file you can come up w/ some measurements too)
« Last Edit: April 22, 2014, 12:48:31 PM by Vladimirovich » Logged
Telecaster
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« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2014, 02:43:21 PM »
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P. P. S. Given the recent talk of shutter shock in some mirrorless cameras, how does it compare to either the shutter shock or mirror shock in SLRs, or to the shutter shock in Leica M bodies? We are in an era of measurement technology so sensitive that what is measurable can go far beyond what is visible in the final product, so I am curious about the quantification of imperfections, not their mere detectability.

IMO it's a same as it ever was scenario. Folks are just far more sensitive to it now. Last week I was finally able to detect shutter vibration in an A7r photo. Note that I had to deliberately set out to cause it in order to see it. In my real-world use of the camera I'd never shoot under such contrived conditions. Note that I mean contrived for me...I rarely use long lenses and never at the shutter speeds required to reveal the issue (visible on-screen at high mag—when compared with other, non-problematic photos—but not in a 14x21" print). Decades of pic-taking have taught me to avoid the resonant speeds, especially when the camera is dangling off the end of a tripod-mounted lens.

But, hey, I'm all for tech advances that dispense with such issues, even when they can be worked around.

-Dave-
« Last Edit: April 22, 2014, 07:46:24 PM by Telecaster » Logged
stever
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« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2014, 11:31:52 PM »
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My first experience with shutter shock was under a non-contrived condition - 1/120 sec with a gx1 and pancake zoom with blurring evident in a 4x6 print - I returned the camera and lens blaming the lens design.  When I tested the gx7 and 35-100 at 100mm on a tripod with Imatest target and software, shutter shock lost 1/3 of the resolution at 1/160 compared to the electronic shutter (of what I've tested, this is worst case for the gx7). 

Testing hand-held (which is very time consuming and not all that precise) the shutter shock at 100mm (200 eff) appears to degrade resolution less than on a tripod in the range of 1/60 to 1/300 but the loss will be noticeable on a largish prints.

The comments I've seen indicate that shorter focal lengths are generally better (as would be expected) but dependent on lens design.  The vibration induced by the shutter is in a frequency range that is not mitigated by lens stabilization - and may be worse in some stabilized lenses (the discontinued pancake zoom for example).  But it's also not clear how the shutter shock interacts with the suspended stabilized sensor of the GX7 with non-stabilized lenses (and whether it's on or off). 

Practically, shutter shock is much worse than SLR mirror slap because it occurs at a higher frequency that affects shutter speeds often used as opposed to slower speeds normally only used on a tripod that can be removed with mirror lockup (or now first curtain electronic shutter with liveview).
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elf
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« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2014, 12:37:09 AM »
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Doesn't sound like there are very many macro shooters in this crowd  Shocked
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GLJ
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« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2014, 07:02:22 AM »
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it is a rolling shutter with all its limitations + using using rolling shutter in Panasonic cameras somewhat degrades sensor output (for example Panasonic switches to 10bit output from sensor)

The following Panasonic cameras have electronic shuttering. G5/G6/GX7/GH3/GH4/GM1
The first four in that list DO NOT switch to 10bit mode.
I have not read anything as yet about the GH4 doing it, and frankly, I'd be surprised if this would be the case for the top end model.
Its only the GM1 that seems to have some new strange implementation of sensor readout that drops to 10 bit.


Quote
as noted - using flash, hi quality 12bit output for stills, shooting moving objects, higher gains (specifically for JPEG shooters)

The problem that shutter shock gives you is that you lose SOME resolution when you're demanding the utmost quality from your images. If you switch to using flash, then for the VAST majority of people, the flash itself will freeze the scene, therefore you won't get shutter shock even when switching to conventional shutter mode. The more you introduce ambient light into the lighting balance, then yes, the more the 'shocked' sub image will START to become visible, but since we have a huge amount of people who claim they can't even see shutter shock in 'normally shocked' images, then fill in flash images will tend to have very, very low amounts of visible shock and thus reduced resolution.

As for the restricted use of higher ISOs - come on folks, get real - shutter shock's problem is that its robbing you of ultimate resolution. If you want to shoot these mirrorless cameras at ISO6400, then noise reduction is going to be smoothing detail so much, its really not going to matter if you have to switch to conventional shutter for these higher ISO values is it !?!

And frankly, the same type of argument goes for the rolling shutter effect. Sure, if you want to do stuff like pan and track fast moving cars, then yes, you might find the background buildings will get slanted. Well doh .... do you REALLY think that if you would have switched to conventional shutter mode for this and got a teeny weeny bit of shutter shock, that its really going to be visible in THIS TYPE OF SCENARIO ??

And there in lies the issue. Yes, a slow readout electronic shutter mode CAN be used in certain situations that can show the obvious visible effect of a rolling shutter or have other limitations, but in these situations, all you have to do is swap back to using conventional shutter mode, and in these 'certain situations' I bet that the vast, VAST majority of people would not be able to see the effect of any shutter shock even if they were to get it, because there are other factors involved that are degrading or limiting ultimate resolution anyway.
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