Ad
Ad
Ad
Pages: « 1 [2] 3 4 ... 7 »   Bottom of Page
Print
Author Topic: New Leica T-Type 701  (Read 17474 times)
JV
Sr. Member
****
Online Online

Posts: 642


« Reply #20 on: April 19, 2014, 08:22:39 PM »
ReplyReply

I'm not suggesting that Leica move to autofocus for the M, because it would be an enormous engineering hurdle and stray too far from the company's entrenched reputation for building traditional rangefinders.

Thus, the Leica is a precision tool for a very specific type of shooting. However, it's not a highly versatile professional tool for a wide variety of shooting situations.

That said, there are some things that could be improved upon, such as higher ISO performance. For example, I'm not particularly impressed with the CMOSIS sensor tech used in the 240, and think Leica would be better served using current generation Sony sensors.

There are a few items of control operation that could stand improvement as well, but I'm not going to get bogged down listing them all here.

Interesting… just out of curiosity, do you actually own a M 240?  Have you ever shot one?
Logged
Robert Falconer
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 17



WWW
« Reply #21 on: April 19, 2014, 08:35:13 PM »
ReplyReply

I do not own an M240, but I have a friend who owns one and I have shot with his on a few occasions. Personally, I own at late '30s Leica III and an M3.
Logged
KLaban
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1678



WWW
« Reply #22 on: April 20, 2014, 03:33:03 AM »
ReplyReply

Personally, I own at late '30s Leica III and an M3.

You can be sure that if I'm ever tempted to buy a late '30s Leica III or an M3 I'll be first in line for your opinion.
Logged

Telecaster
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 866



« Reply #23 on: April 20, 2014, 03:19:34 PM »
ReplyReply

I have my issues with the basic look of the M240's files, but they're malleable enough that you can work 'em in post to pretty much get what you want. One of the reasons I've taken so well to the M8 is the ease of getting a look I really like. The tonal separation present in the RAW data stays intact no matter what processor I use.

I can see a future M camera abandoning the opto-mechanical rangefinder in favor of an electronic one. This would improve focusing accuracy, if properly implemented, and eliminate the need for an external EVF. A drawback, though, would be the loss of seeing outside the field-of-view of your mounted lens.

-Dave-
Logged
Robert Falconer
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 17



WWW
« Reply #24 on: April 20, 2014, 09:19:32 PM »
ReplyReply

I think getting rid of the opto-mechanical rangefinder mechanism would be a tough choice for Leica to make; it would mark the passing of a very long era for them and might hurt their purist base.

The likelihood is that Fuji's X-Pro 2 will use an improved version of their OVF/EVF hybrid system, whereby the OVF will be further tweaked, and the EVF will be another iteration beyond the already excellent one in the new X-T1.

Such a system really will offer the best of both worlds, and may be something that Leica will eventually need to adopt in a future M. Though not sure how Leica would feel about emulating a Japanese company in their flagship line.
Logged
KLaban
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1678



WWW
« Reply #25 on: April 21, 2014, 11:57:53 AM »
ReplyReply

God forbid that Leica should start producing mainstream highly versatile professional tools for a wide variety of shooting situations. You want that then buy Canon. As for the Leica being better served using current generation Sony sensors, well, forget it, they simply don't work with many of the superb Leica M lenses.

Leica are doing very nicely producing beautifully engineered and unique offerings. Long may they continue.
Logged

Robert Falconer
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 17



WWW
« Reply #26 on: April 21, 2014, 03:29:56 PM »
ReplyReply

Not all Sony sensors are off-the-shelf solutions. Most are custom designed (or tweaked by the destination manufacturer) to suit the purposes of the particular camera in question. The same could hold true for Leica.

I hope Leica continues for a long time, too. But people tend to have short memories, and Leica have traditionally been very shortsighted. They almost went bankrupt back in 2005, largely because they were too slow to enter the modern world (read: adopts new technologies). I hope they learned something from this.

The primary reason they've turned things around is because they've subsequently positioned themselves as a purveyor of high-end luxury goods.

For example, here in Vancouver one of our local retailers has a Leica boutique within his store. The manager of the store told me in no uncertain terms that 95% of the buyers are well-heeled Asian shoppers who are purchasing Leica for its status. Only a tiny percentage of them are serious about photography.

Targeting the uber-rich is a perfectly valid strategy … I would just like to see Leica target serious photographers as well — ones who aren't perhaps quite as wealthy — with a product that is a little more reasonably priced and fully competitive.

Perhaps that's not possible within their new business model, I dunno.

My fear is that this new T-Type 701 camera will be beautifully made mechanically, but that it will still suffer from slow autofocus, poor high ISO performance, etc … and yet will still be priced way above other cameras that offer better overall performance for actual photographers. That's unacceptable, IMO.

I could be wrong. I sincerely hope I am.
Logged
Telecaster
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 866



« Reply #27 on: April 21, 2014, 10:21:56 PM »
ReplyReply

My fear is that this new T-Type 701 camera will be beautifully made mechanically, but that it will still suffer from slow autofocus, poor high ISO performance, etc … and yet will still be priced way above other cameras that offer better overall performance for actual photographers. That's unacceptable, IMO.

Yeah, the electronic stuff will need to be done right. But I suspect this system will have a lot of Panasonic DNA in it, which if true bodes well for AF, etc.

I'm a spectator on this one in any case.   Cheesy

-Dave-
Logged
KLaban
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1678



WWW
« Reply #28 on: April 22, 2014, 07:55:02 AM »
ReplyReply

My fear is that this new T-Type 701 camera will be beautifully made mechanically, but that it will still suffer from slow autofocus, poor high ISO performance, etc … and yet will still be priced way above other cameras that offer better overall performance for actual photographers.

Why the fear? Is it really an option you are looking to buy?

That's unacceptable, IMO.

In that case vote with your wallet. I'm sure it's perfectly acceptable to all those well-heeled Asian shoppers who are purchasing Leica for its status. I'm sure it's also perfectly acceptable to Leica. It's not a camera I'll be buying but I wish more power to their collective elbows.

I would just like to see Leica target serious photographers as well

Oh, I think you'll find they do, but perhaps you're far more serious about your photography than those here who are just using Leica cameras to earn their living?
Logged

Robert Falconer
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 17



WWW
« Reply #29 on: April 22, 2014, 03:51:35 PM »
ReplyReply

"Why the fear? Is it really an option you are looking to buy?"

Possibly. If it really has a 'very quiet shutter', I have an application, but it would also require high ISO capacity on par with Fuji's X-Trans sensor. I doubt we'll see that.

--

"I'm sure it's perfectly acceptable to all those well-heeled Asian shoppers who are purchasing Leica for its status."

You hit the nail on the head, sarcasm notwithstanding.

--

"Oh, I think you'll find they do, but perhaps you're far more serious about your photography than those here who are just using Leica cameras to earn their living?"

More power to you. But in the world of professional photography, "those here who are … using Leica cameras to earn their living" remain very much in the minority.
Logged
Badoit
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1


« Reply #30 on: April 22, 2014, 06:42:08 PM »
ReplyReply

I don't see any issue either with Leica releasing another APS-C camera. This sensor format, and the system around it, could be appropriate for the targeted market, i.e. amateurs (and by that I mean selfie shooters/football mums) with enough disposable income.

I guess I'm being a bit cynical here, but since the Leica T seemingly won't be supporting aperture rings, I very much doubt it would make for a good spiritual descendent of the CL Lips sealed
Though the company could still decide to release some lenses with such a ring down the road, like the did with recent µ4/3 Panasonic lenses.
Logged
KLaban
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1678



WWW
« Reply #31 on: April 23, 2014, 02:23:23 AM »
ReplyReply

But in the world of professional photography, "those here who are … using Leica cameras to earn their living" remain very much in the minority.

True, the vast majority use or want nothing more exciting or "cutting edge" than Canon DSLRs.
Logged

Robert Falconer
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 17



WWW
« Reply #32 on: April 23, 2014, 03:11:09 AM »
ReplyReply

Canon isn't particularly "cutting edge" anymore. Of course, neither are they antediluvian, either.

If anyone is pushing the envelope these days I'd say it's Fujifilm. It will be interesting to see what comes of their development [along with Panasonic] of organic sensor technology.
Logged
bcooter
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1161


Bang The Drum All Day


WWW
« Reply #33 on: April 23, 2014, 07:02:41 AM »
ReplyReply


"those here who are … using Leica cameras to earn their living"remain very much in the minority.

Your probably right.  The professional camera of choice, is a 5d1/2/3 or a nikon dee something.

Leica.

You can't spit the first syllable out  the name without someone saying yea . . . rich dentists, or lately. . . rich Chinese looking for dash a ornament for their Bentley.

Now I know most people are going to take exception to this, but to me no camera company defines photography as Leica.

I'm not a carry a camera 24 hours a day type of guy.  

I've tried with those little olympus em-1 and em-5 and I love em to death, but whatever  I throw one on my shoulder when we go out, I shoot something and I just don't ever do anything but clear the card, though once again, I'm not really a street photographer.

I do sometimes carry my m8 and It always inspires me.   Maybe not as a single photo, usually something I see that I can use as the genesis to build a composite, but regardless, I use it take pictures and actually use them.



Compared to modern cameras everything with an m series is old and wrong.  No autofocus, a pretty good meter but not great, lenses past 75mm are almost impossible to frame and focus but I rarely use anything but the 24mm anyway.

Using an overpriced, outdated Leica is like the first time you have a meal prepared by a Sicilian chef rather than Olive Garden.  You understand why a salad really is worth $27.

Regardless, there is three positives about these old style limitations.

They're actual cameras, not camera shaped smart phones, no matter how much electronic c__p they hide in them.

Picking up a fuji pro something is like going to the apple store and looking a speakers.  Those huge things that look like real speakers until you lift them and you realize they are made from recycled evian bottles.

Secondly, you'll probably never sell the Leica.    I mean, there is very little reason to because m8 to m 240 or 360 or wherever they take it, it will look, work and do the same stuff.  Even the S2 to S is pretty much the same, whether they stick with ccd or go to cmosoes.

The last and most important thing is Leicas make you use the most important tool you own . . . your brain.

When you compose you think about it, when you focus you line up some little squares and and . . .  you think about it.

The thing about real leicas including the S2 is they aren't perfect.  The ccd versions shoot cool, like film and everybody can say cmos makes them wet  . . . don't care, because ccd makes me work like film which means we actually work to make a photo.

Working at making something interesting is good.  


IMO

BC
« Last Edit: April 23, 2014, 12:09:19 PM by bcooter » Logged

KLaban
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1678



WWW
« Reply #34 on: April 23, 2014, 07:58:08 AM »
ReplyReply

^
Terrific commentary.

If I had an inkling a few years back that I would now be using and singing the praises of the Leica M system I would have had myself certified.

Whatever next?
Logged

scooby70
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 219


« Reply #35 on: April 23, 2014, 05:09:42 PM »
ReplyReply

Leica.

You can't spit the first syllable out  the name without someone saying yea . . . rich dentists, or lately. . . rich Chinese looking for dash a ornament for their Bentley....

The last and most important thing is Leicas make you use the most important tool you own . . . your brain.

IMO

BC


I do wonder why there seems to be a tend to refer to some cameras or the companies who make them in mildly derogatory terms. Can't we love what we love and let the others exist with our blessing?

These days electronic companies have the temerity to make cameras but so what? They're not camera phones they're cameras and any unwanted add ons such as wifi and HDR can be turned off or ignored leaving you with, if that's what you want, a camera set to manual.

I've never owned a Leica as I just didn't see the need to spend that much money. Instead I owned lesser RF's each with a single lens and enjoyed using cheaper but still enjoyable gear. I sold my RF's years ago and although I do still own film cameras it's just for the memories and my most used camera now and for some time was made by a massive far eastern company - and I love it. They make cameras, fridges, vacuum cleaners and all manor of things and they probably make ships too and they almost certainly make phones but what I own is a camera and I use old manual lenses on it in aperture and occasionally manual mode and to me it's a very film shooting like experience and not at all like phoning my dentist.
Logged
Robert Falconer
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 17



WWW
« Reply #36 on: April 23, 2014, 05:48:16 PM »
ReplyReply

Your probably right.  The professional camera of choice, is a 5d1/2/3 or a nikon dee something.

Leica.

You can't spit the first syllable out  the name without someone saying yea . . . rich dentists, or lately. . . rich Chinese looking for dash a ornament for their Bentley.

Now I know most people are going to take exception to this, but to me no camera company defines photography as Leica.

I'm not a carry a camera 24 hours a day type of guy.  

I've tried with those little olympus em-1 and em-5 and I love em to death, but whatever  I throw one on my shoulder when we go out, I shoot something and I just don't ever do anything but clear the card, though once again, I'm not really a street photographer.

I do sometimes carry my m8 and It always inspires me.   Maybe not as a single photo, usually something I see that I can use as the genesis to build a composite, but regardless, I use it take pictures and actually use them.



Compared to modern cameras everything with an m series is old and wrong.  No autofocus, a pretty good meter but not great, lenses past 75mm are almost impossible to frame and focus but I rarely use anything but the 24mm anyway.

Using an overpriced, outdated Leica is like the first time you have a meal prepared by a Sicilian chef rather than Olive Garden.  You understand why a salad really is worth $27.

Regardless, there is three positives about these old style limitations.

They're actual cameras, not camera shaped smart phones, no matter how much electronic c__p they hide in them.

Picking up a fuji pro something is like going to the apple store and looking a speakers.  Those huge things that look like real speakers until you lift them and you realize they are made from recycled evian bottles.

Secondly, you'll probably never sell the Leica.    I mean, there is very little reason to because m8 to m 240 or 360 or wherever they take it, it will look, work and do the same stuff.  Even the S2 to S is pretty much the same, whether they stick with ccd or go to cmosoes.

The last and most important thing is Leicas make you use the most important tool you own . . . your brain.

When you compose you think about it, when you focus you line up some little squares and and . . .  you think about it.

The thing about real leicas including the S2 is they aren't perfect.  The ccd versions shoot cool, like film and everybody can say cmos makes them wet  . . . don't care, because ccd makes me work like film which means we actually work to make a photo.

Working at making something interesting is good.  


IMO

BC

I completely get what you're trying to say here.

But let me ask you this, Russell: Could you / would you realistically jettison every other piece of gear you own and use your Leica(s) exclusively for all of your professional work?

I think we both know the answer to that, and I think when you strip everything else away, it drives to the core of the matter.

There's no question that a particular instrument or the right tool can emotionally motivate someone to push their creativity further; to work harder; to connect to their art more completely by its very nature. So we're sort of "right brain"-ing ourselves at this point, but I'll accept that as a valid argument. This is artistic expression, after all, and whatever inspires you artistically is legitimate.

However, can said instrument give a photographer who lacks "vision" eyes with which to see the world around him/her?

I don't think so.

Moreover, all of today's higher end cameras are generally capable of producing images better than what the photographer is capable of creating.

So, it's the photographer, then. To borrow from a familiar phrase (in the US at least): Cameras don't take pictures, people take pictures.

Consider this: If you remove emotion from the argument, what you see with Leica, historically, is a company that innovated consistently right up until the M3. Remember, at the time the M was introduced, nobody used terms like "traditional", or "old school", or a "slower more methodical way of shooting"; the M3 was simply state-of-the-art for its time. In fact, it was "faster" and more responsive than anything else. Sound familiar?

They haven't done anything like that since. Every subsequent M has been an iterative evolution of that same basic design (today that's being marketed as "traditional"). Engineering innovation from Leica after the M3 slowed…markedly. This was likely due to the Japanese entering the camera market en masse around the same time.

And by the 1970s Leica missed entirely the importance of the SLR. The Leicaflex SL — solidly built though it may have been — couldn't compete on any real-world level with the Nikon F2 or Canon F1, to say nothing of the ELs, EFs, FEs, FAs, A1s, etc that followed, all of which embraced the electronics revolution that was occurring. So, who did Leica turn to for help? Minolta; hence the XE-7 became the R3.

(Notice I'm not questioning Leica's optics here; we all know they're magnificent.)

What I'm arguing is that it would be nice for Leica to innovate again, rather than just market what is effectively a half-century old design to rich collectors. I'm not saying stop the M cameras; their longevity has clearly become entrenched in our collective photographic DNA. But show us something NEW that demonstrates Leica is capable of innovating once again. (I don't think fully entering the 21st century with a new product has to subtract anything from the M, or Leica's tradition.)

Leica does industrial design and menus, etc. very elegantly. It's the electronic guts where they continually come up behind. Don't just give us a mirrorless camera made of unobtanium or vibranium, or some other rare Earth material, and then stick 3-year-old electronics or a 2-year-old sensor design into it and call it a day. Don't handicap it with slow autofocus or poor high ISO performance.

Maybe I'll be wrong and they'll surprise us with something amazing. I hope so.

Let me just add: the photographic world needs Leica. Leica is a part of modern photographic history and tradition. Today more than ever. Their very existence gives photography a certain cachet, particularly in this world of smartphone proliferation. But I think if they want to continue commanding exorbitant prices from serious photographers, they need to offer products that are as competitive functionally as they are well-crafted physically.
Logged
tom b
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 869


WWW
« Reply #37 on: April 23, 2014, 07:38:25 PM »
ReplyReply

Leica T Website is Made Live by Accident

Cheers,
Logged

JimVehe
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 8


« Reply #38 on: April 23, 2014, 08:42:30 PM »
ReplyReply

Everything else about the T may or may not be useful to enough people to make it a viable product, but who is buying any kind of a camera for anything more than iPhone snaps that does not have a viewfinder.  Once you put the viewfinder on it, it becomes a Frankenstein.
Logged
Telecaster
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 866



« Reply #39 on: April 24, 2014, 12:02:55 AM »
ReplyReply

Personally I have no angst about Leica innovating or not innovating. The opto-mechanical 135-format rangefinder camera was IMO perfected with the M3, and it's just been tweaking ever since. Electronic sensors are nothing but another kind of tweak. You either love Leica RFs or you don't, but if you do you likely don't worry about innovation...you just want the latest one to do that thing the older one did/does. For convenience sake I like that my M8s save image data to SD cards rather than film frames, but otherwise they're basically M6s (which are themselves just M2/3/4s with lightmeters). And that's a good thing.

Now this new T camera is a different thing. It may or may not be innovative or prove successful...we shall see. But it seems Leica is interested in more than just iterating new M & S models. That could be a good thing too.

-Dave-
Logged
Pages: « 1 [2] 3 4 ... 7 »   Top of Page
Print
Jump to:  

Ad
Ad
Ad