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Author Topic: Wide lense combination...  (Read 2253 times)
Sunny Alan
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« on: April 05, 2014, 01:25:33 AM »
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Camera 5D2 with 24-105, 50/1.2, Tokina 17mm f/3.5 AT-X 17 AF PRO

Job: Landscapes for enlarge printing.

Found 17 to 70 is my favorite FL, so choices: 17-40, 24-70, also 24 TSe, and Zeiss 35mm F/1.4 Distagon T*, even 21 when thinking of IQ.
However, cannot afford more than a combination of 2 of the above, best suiting with my existing 3.

same time IQ is important over price or brand.

Please share...
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BartvanderWolf
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« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2014, 02:48:24 AM »
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However, cannot afford more than a combination of 2 of the above, best suiting with my existing 3.

same time IQ is important over price or brand.

Hi,

Why not use stitching? Starting with a somewhat longish focal length will give you a higher magnification factor and thus superior resolution, and the Field of View is not dictated by the lens but by the subject, you just add tiles until the field is covered.

Cheers,
Bart
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chez
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« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2014, 07:09:37 PM »
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Stitching works for some form of landscapes as long as things ars static. I take seascapes where things change quite drastically between consecutive shots leaving stitching almost impossible. For static landscapes, stitching is an option.

Hi,

Why not use stitching? Starting with a somewhat longish focal length will give you a higher magnification factor and thus superior resolution, and the Field of View is not dictated by the lens but by the subject, you just add tiles until the field is covered.

Cheers,
Bart
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BartvanderWolf
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« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2014, 07:39:21 PM »
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Stitching works for some form of landscapes as long as things ars static.

Hence the question, "Why not use stitching?"

Cheers,
Bart
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capital
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« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2014, 08:47:42 PM »
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Reading your post, it seems like you still want to keep your existing lenses which already cover the focal length you are trying to buy. If you are primarily shooting at F/16-22, I am not sure how much you will gain with a new lens. Perhaps the tilt shift you mentioned might be the best option as TSE-24 has been reviewed very favorably for its image quality, which is your primary concern. Another way to look at it is see which of the three lenses you currently use is the worst performer and buy a better substitute for that focal range.
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Sunny Alan
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« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2014, 12:33:25 AM »
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Hence the question, "Why not use stitching?"

Cheers,
Bart
Why not because all elements are not always static in a landscape. Leaves, bushes, waves, clouds, birds etc. become moved between shots, and these multiple shots take time too, unlike in-camera bracketing.

And it is slow process for high volume jobs.

Apart from a 36 MP, the Sony A7r has many other advantages too in terms of landscape shooting.
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BartvanderWolf
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« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2014, 04:09:22 AM »
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Why not because all elements are not always static in a landscape. Leaves, bushes, waves, clouds, birds etc. become moved between shots, and these multiple shots take time too, unlike in-camera bracketing.

Correct, although the issues are often not as limiting as anticipated. It may require a better tool (e.g. PTGUI + SmartBlend), or a bit of planning, but most issues can be solved with good technique (a No Parallax Point rotation setup) and a bit of experience (e.g. shoot the sequence against the direction of cloud travel). The only subject that can prove difficult (but not impossible, using layer warping if nothing else works good enough) is the blending of wavecrests.

Quote
And it is slow process for high volume jobs.

Most high volume jobs take time to process, but landscapes are not the first thing I associate with high volume jobs. A good landscape shot takes time, and I prefer one good one over ten mediocre ones.

Quote
Apart from a 36 MP, the Sony A7r has many other advantages too in terms of landscape shooting.

Absolutely, higher sensor resolution and more sensels reduce the need to stitch many tiles if any. For many uses, a simple single row stitch with 2-4 tiles is enough, and only takes a short time to do with very little extra gear needed (so lightweight and compact to travel with).

Cheers,
Bart
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David Sutton
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« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2014, 01:56:17 AM »
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Why not because all elements are not always static in a landscape. Leaves, bushes, waves, clouds, birds etc. become moved between shots, and these multiple shots take time too, unlike in-camera bracketing.

And it is slow process for high volume jobs.

Apart from a 36 MP, the Sony A7r has many other advantages too in terms of landscape shooting.

Here is a photo made hand held from the deck of a moving ship with a 5DII and 24-105 lens. Total 6 shots over 6 seconds. Stitched with Autopano.  It hasn't been to Photoshop yet to be checked for artefacts, but a cursory look a few minutes ago failed to find any. At 728 MB I don't think there would be any problems printing large.
I went no further with it as THIS ended up my final keeper. I must have been tired as the three photos it was stitched from were taken over a period of 27 seconds (from a moving ship), so there was some cloning in Photoshop, but not as much as you'd think. I've printed it large and it looks good.
While you consider a  Sony or alternative, don't let that stop you playing with stitching. Single row images are a doddle. Making double row images quickly takes a little practice, but it is not that hard.
David
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Sunny Alan
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« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2014, 02:32:34 AM »
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You are correct and proven it.
And me or anybody never said it is not possible or practical.

Mine is unique situation: I am the chief photographer and CE of the printing company. My time is divided between these two and family life, political, charity.... Now time is very scarce. Then with some extra investment, I cam save lot of time on tiled shooting, stitching etc. I end up with a single large image, which is near perfect with some LR or Photoshopping. If multiple images stacked, size go up.

And lot of shots are from overseas sites, where time is scarce and shooting conditions are not favorable.
A7R with a 24Tse gives us a great size, with very little flaws, the best single image today.

Those that are Pros, have lot of time: shooting is the main job, can go for the cheapest means to0 produce best images.(By and large)

Life circumstances are different between people....

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David Sutton
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« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2014, 03:01:59 AM »
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If you want to go to more MP I've heard the A7R is a fine choice. Talking to friends about it, the limiting factor seems to be the choice of lenses and the necessity to really nail the camera down on a good tripod to maximise the potential of the system.
I've gone to a smaller system (Fuji) for reasons of weight, and I don't make prints over 24" wide, and it's fine for that. But I have to say that the 5D2 with Magic Lantern loaded was a formidable combination, though the 24-105 was not really up to scratch as far as sharpness went. I used an old Contax/Zeiss 35-70 with an adapter when I wanted sharp.
Here's another possibility. Your 24 and 35mm lenses are the sharpest? Have you thought of sticking with those and trying up-rezzing? The learning curve for the software may be a lot less than that for mastering a new camera, and some folks say they can't see much difference. I've tried a couple of products, but though the results were good, they were no better than the on-the-fly uprezzing and sharpening algorithms in Qimage so I abandoned the idea and saved myself the larger file sizes.
At any rate, changing systems is a fairly major step. Can you borrow a Sony and see if the ergonomics and output suits you?
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Ajoy Roy
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« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2014, 06:56:43 AM »
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You are correct and proven it.
And me or anybody never said it is not possible or practical.

Mine is unique situation: I am the chief photographer and CE of the printing company. My time is divided between these two and family life, political, charity.... Now time is very scarce. Then with some extra investment, I cam save lot of time on tiled shooting, stitching etc. I end up with a single large image, which is near perfect with some LR or Photoshopping. If multiple images stacked, size go up.

And lot of shots are from overseas sites, where time is scarce and shooting conditions are not favorable.
A7R with a 24Tse gives us a great size, with very little flaws, the best single image today.

Those that are Pros, have lot of time: shooting is the main job, can go for the cheapest means to0 produce best images.(By and large)

Life circumstances are different between people....



If you want a single shot wide photo, I can think of no better solution than an 80MP medium format camera. That gives you plenty of pixels to print. Of course you end up spending about 10 times more than a 35mm DSLR, but as you said, time is money and some location you may not have the luxury of panoramic stitching.
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Ajoy Roy, image processing
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« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2014, 07:59:01 AM »
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My top choice for a prime lens for landscapes is the Zeiss 21mm for EOS mount (they also make it for Nikon I suppose?).
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pluton
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« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2014, 03:19:44 AM »
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The Canon 17-40 plus the 24-70Mk2(reputedly a superb lens) would perfectly cover your stated focal length range preference.
My suggestion:  Try one Zeiss lens, make sure whether or not you like the Zeiss imaging style.  I can only personally vouch for the Zeiss's I have:  21, 25/2, 28, 35/2, 50/2, 100, on the 36MP Nikon.  Maybe the Zeiss 35/2 instead of the f/1.4?
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Ajoy Roy
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« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2014, 07:43:21 AM »
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Get the slower lenses for landscape[es. The fast lenses are good for the bokeh and OOF rendering, but the slower lense - F2 to F4 have better linearity and colour saturation.
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Sunny Alan
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« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2014, 12:15:05 PM »
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If you want to go to more MP I've heard the A7R is a fine choice. Talking to friends about it, the limiting factor seems to be the choice of lenses and the necessity to really nail the camera down on a good tripod to maximise the potential of the system..
The tripod-mounting is quite normal for me, in fact I never attempt a freehand shot, except trial random shots. ALWAYS shoot on medium-sturdy Tripod.

But the most limiting factor I found with A7r is the limitation of lenses with Sony. No Sony lenses are in the 'Best' category, no blame, lens is no kidding, at least they make great strides in camera tech.

So one has to depend on third party lenses: and best of them are spread among many brands, all having specific mount measures. (I will say it is high time to agree on a single spec. mount to all cameras/lenses.)

Here enter Adapters: None is perfect. Wonder why no serious entrepreneur entered into it. Short, the great image created by best camera+top lens combination is ruined by a stupid piece of metal in between them  Cry

I plan to buy the A7r+ Canon 24Tse+ Tripod is a currently best combination for best digital image. But no adapter available in world something near to it in quality and compatibility.
(See the story: http://blog.kasson.com/?p=4024)
I am really worried, if my money is ruined or not.

I've gone to a smaller system (Fuji) for reasons of weight, and I don't make prints over 24" wide, and it's fine for that. But I have to say that the 5D2 with Magic Lantern loaded was a formidable combination, though the 24-105 was not really up to scratch as far as sharpness went. I used an old Contax/Zeiss 35-70 with an adapter when I wanted sharp.
Here's another possibility. Your 24 and 35mm lenses are the sharpest? Have you thought of sticking with those and trying up-rezzing? The learning curve for the software may be a lot less than that for mastering a new camera, and some folks say they can't see much difference. I've tried a couple of products, but though the results were good, they were no better than the on-the-fly uprezzing and sharpening algorithms in Qimage so I abandoned the idea and saved myself the larger file sizes.


I studied many such 'image enhancing software' short-cuts: Not satisfied so far. They are all good to make SOME improvement in size, de-speckle, sharpen.... but all are good if the need is for a medium quality.
When enlarging the limitations show up.

At any rate, changing systems is a fairly major step. Can you borrow a Sony and see if the ergonomics and output suits you?
Yes, it is costly, new training, time waste: but no way to stay in the race in terms of technology, and demands. No other way.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2014, 12:47:44 PM by Sunny Alan » Logged
Sunny Alan
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« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2014, 12:56:15 PM »
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If you want a single shot wide photo, I can think of no better solution than an 80MP medium format camera. That gives you plenty of pixels to print. Of course you end up spending about 10 times more than a 35mm DSLR, but as you said, time is money and some location you may not have the luxury of panoramic stitching.

Yes, I tested that path too. NOW, some of the systems are good, but VERY expensive, and most are so heavy you have to buy a truck. Dont think of trekking or climbing mountains.

And ultimately you are investing in obsolete tech, and gadgets. If not now, they are in no time.
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Sunny Alan
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« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2014, 01:48:12 PM »
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My top choice for a prime lens for landscapes is the Zeiss 21mm for EOS mount (they also make it for Nikon I suppose?).

I mentioned, all best lenses are third party and there enter an idiotic piece of metal or even cheap plastic namely 'Adapter', the villain.
It adopts both classy gadgets into one, but to deteriorate the outcome, the image.

Zeiss 21, 25, 28, and Canon 24Tse, 70-200, Leica..... are all great lenses. But all are daunted with Adapter nuisance...
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Sunny Alan
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« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2014, 01:49:12 PM »
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My top choice for a prime lens for landscapes is the Zeiss 21mm for EOS mount (they also make it for Nikon I suppose?).

I mentioned, all best lenses are third party and there enter an idiotic piece of metal or even cheap plastic namely 'Adapter', the villain.
It adopts both classy gadgets into one, but to deteriorate the outcome, the image.

Zeiss 21, 25, 28, and Canon 24Tse, 70-200, Leica..... are all great lenses. But all are daunted with Adapter nuisance...
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Lightsmith
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« Reply #18 on: April 16, 2014, 06:02:56 PM »
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I would start with the Canon 17-40mm f4 lens which is one of Canon's best zooms. At the f8 to f16 apertures you will be using for landscapes it will provide very good prints. Don't forget that the larger the print the greater the viewing distance. Zeiss makes the best lenses but then you have one prime instead of the many focal length options with the zoom (based on your current budget).
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Professional
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« Reply #19 on: April 20, 2014, 12:25:32 AM »
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Well, my experience is almost same as you, i am not a chief or director like you, but i had a job that keep my busy and i have a family too, actually like 2 families under one roof, also friends and relatives, so i know about time consuming, but that didn't stop me enjoying with photography when i can or when i travel.

Now, and when i said now i mean until the time i was typing and posting this, my best lenses i have in my bags for landscape are:

Canon TS-E 24mmII, Canon 16-35L, Canon 24-105L, i also have 24-70 but that one is still in Canon dealer after it came from service center and it is more than 1 year and i didn't go to bring it back.

Now the only lens i am thinking to buy to complete my set is: Canon TS-E 17mm.

You have more money than me, so you can afford both Canon TS lenses and never look back, you don't need to stitch all the time, also you can crop slightly with 36mm camera and you can get decent shots and still high mp than 5D3 or 1Ds series or even those 24mp cameras, but are you only want to shoot panos? because you mentioned landscapes but it sounds like you are looking for panos and not just wide shots, damn with TS-E 17mm it is very wide enough.

Also another alternatives cheap i can give you are: Samyang 14mm, Sigma 12-24, i was going to tell you go with Nikon 14-24mm which is so fine amazing lens even i never used or have because i am a Canon shooter, but this lens was like very popular in Nikon side, so it may be an option if you can afford it.

So now, just be sure about what landscape you are looking for exactly and then decide wisely on which lenses you want to get, i skipped Zeiss from the formula.
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