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Author Topic: Calibrated environment: Monitor and Epson  (Read 2994 times)
Sunny Alan
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« on: April 08, 2014, 03:43:49 AM »
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I need to copy paintings using my A7r camera and edit and reproduction print on Epson 9900.

To achieve exact color of painting reproduced, calibration is a must. Monitor, copying camera and printer are involved.
What are to get calibrated, all 3?
What calibration tool competitively priced?

Request your sharing in this.
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Simon Garrett
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« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2014, 04:32:20 AM »
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If you are talking of record photography, then you need specialist advice.  I dare say Andrew Rodney (aka digitaldog) will be along soon to help... 
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Sunny Alan
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« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2014, 05:05:43 AM »
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If you are talking of record photography, then you need specialist advice.  I dare say Andrew Rodney (aka digitaldog) will be along soon to help... 
Well, I doubt if it is what you meant.

My job is normal fine art painting is copied by high MP camera and reprint. This is under agreement with the painter. I print limited copies, say 50, not even 51. All 51 (1 original+50 copies) are considered 'Limited Edition
Originals".

Here biggest problem is matching color with the original paining.

If monitor calibrated with Colormunki is enough is my question.

Thanks...
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Simon Garrett
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« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2014, 07:32:29 AM »
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The issue for reproduction of artworks is that it depends on issue like viewing conditions and lighting where the prints will be seen.  This is true for all prints, but likely to be especially critical where one is reproducing works of art. 

Calibrating the monitor is a must.  Calibrating the printer: for some printers, the supplied profiles may be good enough. 

Are you in a position to try it out with a few paintings, and see how you get on?
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Sunny Alan
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« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2014, 08:03:54 AM »
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Is Monitor calibration alone enough with printer supplied profiles?
I read somewhere that to match the print with original, not only Monitor, but the printer altogether has to be calibrated with the same calibrating gadget/ software.

Yes, I can check it in a couple of weeks...
Thanks
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PhilipCummins
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« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2014, 09:47:52 AM »
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Is Monitor calibration alone enough with printer supplied profiles?
I read somewhere that to match the print with original, not only Monitor, but the printer altogether has to be calibrated with the same calibrating gadget/ software.

You would be well recommended to look at camera calibration tools in conjunction with calibration targets like the ColorChecker, ColorChecker Passport or ColorChecker SG. Datacolor also has their SpyderChecker and Integrated Color Camera 20/20. If you are shooting in a studio you should be able to control the lighting enough so that you can build a profile for the artwork to use. Have a look at http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/article_pages/eye_one_photo_SG.html as an example.
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digitaldog
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« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2014, 10:00:07 AM »
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Is Monitor calibration alone enough with printer supplied profiles?
I read somewhere that to match the print with original, not only Monitor, but the printer altogether has to be calibrated with the same calibrating gadget/ software.
If you want a match between print and display, you have some work ahead. See: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/why_are_my_prints_too_dark.shtml

Matching that print to the original artwork is a HUGE undertaking and unless you're serious about spending considerable time and money on just the capture setup, with no insurance all colors in all artwork will match, you've got your work cut out for you. Start just attempting to match print and display.
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Andrew Rodney
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hugowolf
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« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2014, 10:32:23 PM »
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Let me first say that it will be impossible to reproduce the ‘exact color’ of the original in most cases. There are likely colors that the printer cannot reproduce. And without really expensive capture equipment, the best you can hope for is acceptable.

Good lighting is usually the first step in art reproduction with a camera. The standard setup being two identical lights at a little less than 45º to the work, equidistant from the work and each other, feathered so that the left light is aimed at the right edge of the work, and the right light aimed at the left edge. You would meter the lights at the surface of the work and adjust so that there is less than a 1/10 stop difference between the center and corners.

If you don’t have an incident meter, you can shoot a plain sheet in place of the artwork, bring it into your editing software, and examine it for even coverage. Shooting tethered to a computer is enormously helpful.

As far as calibration is concerned, the monitor is the most important, and you would want a monitor with as wide a gamut as you can afford.

Printer calibration isn’t the same as the calibration of most other devices. You need a profile for the printer and the paper you are going to print on. And as already pointed out, many paper manufacture’s profiles are very good.

And no, you do not need to use the same device and software to calibrate your monitor, produce paper profiles for your printer, and calibrate your camera.

With a decent lighting setup, a calibrated monitor, you can always shoot a standard color patch card, something like a ColorChecker mini, on every other shot, and use that to manual adjust images. There are fairly simple methods of producing camera profiles: such as the X-rite ColorChecker Passport.

Brian A
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Alan Klein
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« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2014, 10:58:43 PM »
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Check with custom art dealer and professional printers who do this work and ask how they get theirs done.
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Schewe
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« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2014, 11:28:12 PM »
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Good lighting is usually the first step in art reproduction with a camera. The standard setup being two identical lights at a little less than 45º to the work, equidistant from the work and each other, feathered so that the left light is aimed at the right edge of the work, and the right light aimed at the left edge. You would meter the lights at the surface of the work and adjust so that there is less than a 1/10 stop difference between the center and corners.

Good lighting is essential...and if you are shooting digital, pretty much forget about tungsten lighting! Why? Digital camera sensors don't reproduce really good color when that far outside of the sensor's intended design spec–which is essentially daylight (D50-D55). Tungsten produces so little blue light output that many colors may reproduce poorly. It's fine for non-critical color and you can get decent results but the lower the color temp, the tougher it will be.

Strobes would work well as well as certain (but not all) LED lights. I would also avoid florescent light sources because even the best daylight high CRI bulbs still produce spiky spectral responses. Again, yes, you can get decent results but some colors just will not be properly rendered by the sensor.

The other issue you'll prolly face is one of brush texture...if the paintings have strongly 3D type paint buildup, you'll get reflections from the lights on the brush stroke. Sometimes this can help give the painting a more dimensional look when printed...other times it can overpower the painting. This is particularly true if your light sources are small and specular vs a broader more even light. Many specialists rely on using polarized light sources and a polarizing filter on the camera. That way you have control over the relative amounts of reflection coming off the painting.

In terms of camera calibration, I would suggest an X-Rite ColorChecker card and X-Rite's Passport software to create an accurate DNG profile for your camera using your final light sources...X-Rite also has several solutions for display calibration.

In terms of printer/paper profiles, if you are using Epson material for the 9900, the odds are the Epson supplied profiles will be really good (as good as custom profiles I can make). If you are talking about 3rd party media, then that will vary considerable depending on the supplier.

You really need to spell out how you are planning of shooting the paintings, what sort of size they are and what sort of lighting you have. To do this really well is a lot more work than many would expect...good luck!
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Sunny Alan
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« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2014, 12:19:01 AM »
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Good lighting is essential...and if you are shooting digital, pretty much forget about tungsten lighting! Why? Digital camera sensors don't reproduce really good color when that far outside of the sensor's intended design spec–which is essentially daylight (D50-D55). Tungsten produces so little blue light output that many colors may reproduce poorly. It's fine for non-critical color and you can get decent results but the lower the color temp, the tougher it will be.

Strobes would work well as well as certain (but not all) LED lights. I would also avoid florescent light sources because even the best daylight high CRI bulbs still produce spiky spectral responses. Again, yes, you can get decent results but some colors just will not be properly rendered by the sensor.

The other issue you'll prolly face is one of brush texture...if the paintings have strongly 3D type paint buildup, you'll get reflections from the lights on the brush stroke. Sometimes this can help give the painting a more dimensional look when printed...other times it can overpower the painting. This is particularly true if your light sources are small and specular vs a broader more even light. Many specialists rely on using polarized light sources and a polarizing filter on the camera. That way you have control over the relative amounts of reflection coming off the painting.

Very informative, I will not forget your points...

In terms of camera calibration, I would suggest an X-Rite ColorChecker card and X-Rite's Passport software to create an accurate DNG profile for your camera using your final light sources...X-Rite also has several solutions for display calibration.

But you forgotten Monitor calibration ?

In terms of printer/paper profiles, if you are using Epson material for the 9900, the odds are the Epson supplied profiles will be really good (as good as custom profiles I can make). If you are talking about 3rd party media, then that will vary considerable depending on the supplier.
Here, apart from Epson and other quality substrates, I will have to print on cheaper, Chinese stuff too as per demand for cheaper varieties.
I was wondering how to make profiles for this category. Chinese make some good, cheaper stuff, but they never heard of 'Profiling' .

You really need to spell out how you are planning of shooting the paintings, what sort of size they are and what sort of lighting you have. To do this really well is a lot more work than many would expect...good luck!
Thanks...
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Sunny Alan
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« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2014, 12:26:08 AM »
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Check with custom art dealer and professional printers who do this work and ask how they get theirs done.
Unfortunately nobody in my locality, and thats why I plan to enter this field.
There are art dealers/ art galleries, but they sell original paintings alone. One or two print with Epson, but no color calibrated environments. They just print from the CDs brought by clients. Clients are not even heard of color management tools.

So, finally I have to find my way, hence here...

Thanks.
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Schewe
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« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2014, 12:46:44 AM »
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But you forgotten Monitor calibration ?

Sorry...X-Rite offers two levels of display calibration– i1Disply Pro and ColorMunki.

If you will need to do multiple paper/printer profiles, perhaps the i1Photo Pro 2 (which would handle both camera, display and RGB based printer profiles).
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Sunny Alan
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« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2014, 01:01:36 AM »
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You really need to spell out how you are planning of shooting the paintings, what sort of size they are and what sort of lighting you have. To do this really well is a lot more work than many would expect...good luck!

I planed to copy paintings with a Sony A7r camera, with a 'flat-field' lens like a 50mm /2.5 or tr get an old Schneider copy lens or so. Painting could be as big as 6x4 feet. If bigger, I will have to take tiles and stitch.

Is it possible to take such big size in single image, not sure. And I have to reproduce them in exact actual sizes.
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Schewe
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« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2014, 01:33:05 AM »
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Is it possible to take such big size in single image, not sure. And I have to reproduce them in exact actual sizes.

Well, you won't be able to repro a 6'x4' painting 1:1 cause, well, the 9900 can only go up to 44".

Shooting in tiles for stitching complicates matters...can be done but in magnifies the technical issues...are you prepared for that?
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D Fosse
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« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2014, 02:37:07 AM »
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I'd strongly recommend cross-polarized light (as Jeff mentioned). The difference in overall contrast and color richness is huge, see attachments.

That means the light source has to be strobes, because polarizing sheets are not heat resistant.

The most efficient way is to fit pieces of polarizer (equally oriented) directly on the strobe reflectors, and then rotate the lens polarizer for maximum effect. One potential problem is that for very textured paint, or 3d relief type works, point light sources may give you unpleasantly harsh shadows. This can be overcome by fitting larger sheets on strip soft boxes - but in general, diffuse light increases the risk of specular highlights. Some experimenting will be needed.
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hugowolf
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« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2014, 09:14:30 AM »
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Here, apart from Epson and other quality substrates, I will have to print on cheaper, Chinese stuff too as per demand for cheaper varieties.
I was wondering how to make profiles for this category. Chinese make some good, cheaper stuff, but they never heard of 'Profiling' .

Two sheets of A4 or 8.5" x 11", US$25 up to US$100, postage one way, and you could have a custom profile for the paper of your choice emailed to you.

Brian A
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Sunny Alan
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« Reply #17 on: April 15, 2014, 01:38:39 PM »
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Color management:

Quite a bit of learning curve.
But have to learn it.

Any good reference books advisable, preferably giving guidance for day to day work, rather than with highly detailed engineering jargons  ?
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Simon Garrett
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« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2014, 01:45:05 PM »
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Andrew Rodney (aka digitaldog) wrote the best book on the subject - see the footer to his post above.

I wrote a few much briefer summaries for a local camera club, including a "cheat sheet" which has a lot of links and references to other sources of information I've found useful.  See http://www.simongarrett.co.uk/
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Sunny Alan
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« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2014, 01:57:57 PM »
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Andrew Rodney (aka digitaldog) wrote the best book on the subject - see the footer to his post above.

I wrote a few much briefer summaries for a local camera club, including a "cheat sheet" which has a lot of links and references to other sources of information I've found useful.  See http://www.simongarrett.co.uk/

By having a look, seems your cheat sheet and summaries are great, rather enough, why go for another book?  Grin

Thanks a lot...  



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