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jjj
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« Reply #20 on: July 31, 2014, 07:04:39 PM »
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Here's an article on doing astrophotography with the A7s, which has a very interesting nugget relating to video in that base ISO for video is 3200.
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« Reply #21 on: July 31, 2014, 07:12:53 PM »
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Everybody talks about 24 fps like it's a holy grail, but I've shot and edited 24 and 30 fps and it doesn't seem to be much difference, other than smoothness of titles and horizontal scrolling.
What gives a cinema look is quality of production, lenses, format and grading, much more than  fps.
Absolutely.
The 24fps supposed superiority is based on decades of comparing 24fps footage shot on film with 30fps footage shot on inferior video. The frame rate was until recently tied to the capture medium and people for some foolish reason then confused frame rate with look, not the capture medium. The 'video look' was due to the footage being shot on video not the wretched frame rate. IMO.
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« Reply #22 on: August 01, 2014, 02:13:32 AM »
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While 30p looks OK to me higher framerates like 50p look sicky smooth - certainly a video look.

When I first started video I could not see the smudging effect of 50p or 50i - now I certianly can - yuk!

30p is probably about the best (IMO) - offering some 'filmic' stutter but not the jerking one can get at 24.

Personally I use 25 as it matches UK electricity.

S
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« Reply #23 on: August 01, 2014, 07:28:16 AM »
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While 30p looks OK to me higher framerates like 50p look sicky smooth - certainly a video look.

When I first started video I could not see the smudging effect of 50p or 50i - now I certianly can - yuk!

30p is probably about the best (IMO) - offering some 'filmic' stutter but not the jerking one can get at 24.

Personally I use 25 as it matches UK electricity.
So have you watched film shot at 50fps and experienced the same issue or are you watching video and ascribing video's look to the fps rate? Higher frame rates have been tried with film but the mechanical stress on film material and the vastly increased cost is the reason it wasn't used. Despite the fact that the immersive quality was claimed to be far superior by some like Douglas Trumball.
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Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #24 on: August 01, 2014, 08:05:16 AM »
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So have you watched film shot at 50fps and experienced the same issue or are you watching video and ascribing video's look to the fps rate? Higher frame rates have been tried with film but the mechanical stress on film material and the vastly increased cost is the reason it wasn't used. Despite the fact that the immersive quality was claimed to be far superior by some like Douglas Trumball.

My FS100 shoots at 50p, my EX1 at 50i - so you can see the look on the monitors.. it literally makes one feel ill when operating.

S
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« Reply #25 on: August 01, 2014, 10:55:15 AM »
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So you've not seen film at 50fps then.
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smthopr
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« Reply #26 on: August 01, 2014, 12:22:04 PM »
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A thought about frame rates :

24 fps is very practical as it is easy to convert to other standards.

24fps can be sped up slightly to play back at 25fps or then doubled to 50fps for 50hz broadcast countries.

24fps converts well to 30fps with 3:2 pull down, so that it can be shown in cinemas and 60hz broadcast also.

So, today, if you want to distribute to a global audience, 24fps is the best frame rate for filming. 30fps does not convert well to 24 or 50fps.
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Bruce Alan Greene
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« Reply #27 on: August 02, 2014, 06:14:07 PM »
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Maybe Canon will add it to a 4K 7D Mark II this September. (Yeh, right).






Hywel,

I think it would be great if the 7d was 4k and had the autofocus of the 70d, but in my view better if the 70d just had a few more features like hdmi out without killing
the camera monitor and a headphone jack and 4k.

Anyway,

This is the base of my "instead of A7s" rig.

It's not huge RED, it's not stealthy 43, but it's fast, autofocus is pretty amazing and works in low light.

I guess it's a lifestyle advertising camera and that's what we use it for.

The total cost of camera, cage, audio recorder is less than the A7s, the 2k files of the 70d and the A7s are virtually the same except at high, high iso.

I can also use my Canon lens set for both stills and motion so it's a seamless transition.

Actually the only thing it's missing is 4k, but few people are producing 4k content at output, so today it's not a deal breaker and I wonder how many people buy
the a7s will actually buy a recorder and shoot 4k.

The cage is from Wooden camera and it's good, almost a fraction too small, but with the handle you can walk and track without a lot of stuttery movement.

Not 3 axis stabilizer smooth, but not mobile phone shaky either, so for that "real" look it works and just a little stabilization in post will smooth it out more if need be.

I personally think the dslr motion camera is where the industry is going, at least it fits perfectly into the creative briefs and budgets we work under.

I also think just like stills dslrs are so close to outputting what larger cameras produce in still and motion.

Obviously the output from my REDs is better than this 70d and just like medium format vs. 35mm in stills, the smaller camera makes for a faster more fluid project,
a larger camera produces better imagery but only at the very very highest level.

Advertising seems to be completely in two separate camps.   

Either high end capture and production values with a great deal of post production, or a more "real" look with
less on set production and less post.   Both are viable, both can be profitable, but each genre requires a different outlook and different equipment.

I see much more of the real look than the high end effected look, but that's probably a reflection of budget.

IMO

BC
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fredjeang2
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« Reply #28 on: August 12, 2014, 11:39:41 AM »
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As crazy as it sounds, the good old GH2 with an intra hack (like the Quantum that was the one I used) is a "killer" in low-light
even compared with the GH3 wich is rather disappointing in that aspect.

Search on Vimeo or YouTube lowlights examples with those hacks. As a B cam on a Budget (GH2 cost nothing now and IMO are still very usable)
with the correct hack you might have surprising results with Little grading.

A link to see those I.frame hacks in question:  http://osgfilms.com/gh2-driftwood-patches/

I know that talking about an Antique hacked GH2 in 2014 is sort of looking back instead of biting into the endless novelties sagas,
but hey...you know what I think about those new magic cameras every 6 months.

Make calculations of constant upgrades and we're not far from the cost of an Alexa for 10 years of use with zero hassles...   
Buy chinese because it's cheap and more costly in the end but it seems not because it's fragmentated
over a period of time.

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« Reply #29 on: August 13, 2014, 04:09:34 AM »
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I know that talking about an Antique hacked GH2 in 2014 is sort of looking back instead of biting into the endless novelties sagas,
but hey...you know what I think about those new magic cameras every 6 months.

To some extent - there is nothing wrong with old tech, specifically when compared to new higher res. cameras, for delivering 1080.

More pixels tends to add to downscaling issues, maybe reduce lowlight performance, and increase jello.

It is a shame that we have not seen a really great little cam aimed at producing 2Kraw

Well in fact we have, Dbolex, BMC2.5k BMC pocket and Ikonopoop to name a few - but they have not 'worked' for me mainly due to the issues of lensing smaller sensors

The high end sony '1080' F35 (was $200k, now $10k) has a fanbase and to some extent I remain a fan of my Sony FS100 and F3 - I bought the Sony F3 after a serious flirtation with the Sony F5 - which to my eyes did not produce very good 1080 (one could see downscaling artifacts) - the F5 is a great 4k camera though but I could not sustain a 4k raw workflow..

Sony have just launched a 1' chip handy cam (X70??) which looks really nice (50mbs 10bit onboard, 60p(?) , SDI out, XLR, ND) but once again is hampered IMO by cramming 4k pixels into the sensor..

S


« Last Edit: August 13, 2014, 04:13:28 AM by Morgan_Moore » Logged

Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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« Reply #30 on: August 13, 2014, 09:55:06 AM »
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Morgan and Fred,  

I think your both right.  Use what works for you and your client base.

I find it interesting that the real behind the scenes working market doesn't jump at new because it's new.

When High Def came out and I'd hire secondary video crew, it was almost impossible to find a video production company that had a high def camera.

Now we're in this strange no man's land of capture in 4k, delivery in 2k.

It's like a catch phrase where clients say can you shoot 4k but nobody asks for a 4k finish.

I guess the makers will move us up again (some say trick us) into new monitors, computers, cameras and terabytes of storage to shoot and deliver 4k that is streamed on youtube at 50 bits a second.

Personally I like shooting 4k on the REDs because I like the look,  never think that much about the detail and with the RED Rocket cards the workflow is fast, but their is a cost of the cards and the storage.

Last week did some "film" tests of the 70d next to the blackmagic pocket camera.  The bmcpc shoots a nice file, though with 43 lenses pulls focus from lens to the end of the block, a metabones will allow you more freedom and give you an almost super 35mm framing, but those little cameras come with a cost of add ons that quadruples the price.

The 70d, though you have to watch alaising is probably within 10% of dynamic range of the blackmagic, but grading of the 70d file is 200% easier.

It's kind of funny that with all the higher end cameras I own, for the next few weeks I'll probably shoot 90% with a 70d, due to size, time and well . . . time.

On another note, I wonder why there isn't a grading suite for video that resembles lightroom, maybe with tracking and keying.   Resolve does a lot but isn't the easiest program to learn kind of goofy and glitchy on output, where the learning curve of lightroom is about 10% compared to resolve.

I guess someday we'll see it.

IMO

BC
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fredjeang2
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« Reply #31 on: August 13, 2014, 02:14:00 PM »
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I think, or at least that's what I observe here in Europe, that the game is slightly different nowdays.

If you take the high fashion place advert in France and italy, it's all about who shoots (as it always was in still) and of course
Mario can make "making-off" with the crew using very Little production, or at least a production that suits mainly the still campaign,
very Little post prod and with a bit of taste it looks cool.

But when those brands are shooting real campaigns they have the Budget
for cine production and they do. So as in still, who shoot the video? the very same that were shooting them before all the digital democratization area.
In other words, what was high-end yesterday is in the same hands today.
So there they all work colaborative, heavy prod/post and fragmentated.

Then, and very much like in real life, the middle class is sinking into poverty as the richer gets richer...it means that the dudes that were into
a very decent market level but not at the top, are obliged to do the Jobs cheaper, faster, and those same are now compeating with the low-end spheres. 
And this is in this wild west "no-ma's-land" that the mess is indeed.
Nothing can get fully satisfactory under a Budget X and a crew Y.
The tech is there but it's a problema of priorities. We are spoiled to some extend by the marketing deps.

Arri is not targeting people like us, but Sony either. And when it comes to post-prod very much the same.

Ironically, doing good job into the middle-low end is as difficult if not more than doing good job at the top.
But when investors are risking a lot of money into a Project it still has to be done within the "old" way by a bunch of dudes.

See fashion industry. Who shoots the big campaigns? you can count the guys in your hand's fingers. Then, the rest of the world
within the wild west.





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Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #32 on: August 13, 2014, 02:26:04 PM »
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Resolve
BC

The more I use Resolve the more photoshop/C1 seems clunky - where are my huge scopes? I love resolve, but still there are IMO a couple of clunks but not many!

S
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« Reply #33 on: August 13, 2014, 02:46:28 PM »
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Resolve is certainly great,
But still a remanent of the fragmentated workflow.

The guys at the Foundry could do a Nuke suitable
For editing and grading, but their customers
Are specialists so they don't.
Adobe could do a lightroom with high-end specs
For serious post but they won't as it would target
The youtubers.

So there is an empty space in the middle and it
Happens very much the same with cams.
It's like 2 worlds that never end to merge well.
On the cheap, it always misses something and
The ads-on are in the end expensive. And on the
Very pro, unlike in still, it's heavy artillery for
Specialists.

In post, it's still quite amazing that the real all-in-one
Is Smoke. But it aint easy. This is not suitable
For the masses. Autodesk is quite big here so we
Have official training seminars and yes, in the
Right hands it does amazing things, but to master
It properly it requires a lot of training.
So in the end, ironicaly, the smoke operators
Are working in the very high-end when it was thought
To be suitable for the middle size houses.

But yes, Resolve is quite amazing.
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Manoli
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« Reply #34 on: August 15, 2014, 07:27:09 PM »
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This is the base of my "instead of A7s" rig.
It's not huge RED, it's not stealthy 43, but it's fast, autofocus is pretty amazing and works in low light.


BC - time for a smaller A7s rig ... ?


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« Reply #35 on: August 18, 2014, 05:44:12 PM »
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I have a bit of an amateur/newbie question.

I've been reading that it isn't advisable to shoot in Log (i.e. sLog2) with 8 bit 4-2-0 color space. I'm assuming the result being the image falls apart, due to lack of color information, once things are pushed around a good bit...or even slightly pushed in some cases. I haven't applied any heavy grades to the A7s, but sLog2 seems fairly robust to me, although getting good exposure is a bit of a challenge with 3200 ISO in daylight. I've had some banding issues with the heavy ND necessary to shoot in sunlight.  

So do any of the member's here agree that shooting in sLog2 is not the best idea? I've experimented with some of the Cine Gammas, but I'm no expert, and I've found sLog2 to grade a bit better. But I'm also curious if anyone has found a good recipe for picture profiles with the A7s? Philip Bloom's review was decent, and he added that the Cine Gammas seemed to work better for him, particularly with respect to noise. Just wondering what everyone's thoughts were.

Thanks all!
JB    
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Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #36 on: August 19, 2014, 02:00:27 PM »
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JB

I guess you understand the theory of banding in an 8bit codec as you only record 256 levels there are no 'spare' tones to find when you push the file around unlike a 1064 level 10bit file or 4096 12 bit file.

Of course it is all mudged up with compression and the fact that not every image you shoot is full of long slow tonal changes.

Back to Sony.

Well I own an F3. My opinion even with a 10bit recorder is that Slog is too flat (slog was developed for the 12bit F35 camera)

Anyway coming from stills I look to expose to the right or in video world at least fill the sensor with info by using slow ISO where possible.

From some experiments I did (https://vimeo.com/86697012) I saw that the standard profiles 'chainsaw' the highlights, cinegammas allow natural roll off.

Well mixing the desire for nice roll off but not shooting everything in the noise floor (as Slog exposed at 38 does) that leads me to choose the darkest cine curve.. Cine1

I guess the A7s may have some similarities..

S





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« Reply #37 on: August 19, 2014, 07:18:03 PM »
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JB

I guess you understand the theory of banding in an 8bit codec as you only record 256 levels there are no 'spare' tones to find when you push the file around unlike a 1064 level 10bit file or 4096 12 bit file.

Of course it is all mudged up with compression and the fact that not every image you shoot is full of long slow tonal changes.


Exactly. Morgan's right.

I know that this guy: http://www.eugeniorecuenco.com/makings/making_nina14.html
wouldn't normaly hesitate to shoot with even I.phones and certainly GH2,3,4, Canons or whatever small cameras but in the end it's Alexas
and specialy in White tones (or dark) as in the N.R campaign because of the DR and the number of bit+profiles and the straighforward workflow in ProRes.
(even they would normally blow like hell later in post for the message)
I'm not sure if they used Arriraw but I bet they didn't need to.

And..oh yeah...it ain't 4K...

A LUT has to be applied in post for ex to the LOG footage to not look flat and they have to correspond otherwise it's guessing. But it's not a one way traffic as it can be done both ways (prod-post)
http://www.arri.com/camera/alexa/tools/lut_generator/lut_generator/
There are 1D and 3D LUTs and of course the 3D are really the holly grail.(changing brightness without altering saturation etc...)
Quite a complex world.

Quite frankly, when it comes to that, I think that Arri and Red (with the looks) are the most robust. I specialy think that Red did a very clever implementation, at least easy to deal with
or IMO easier than Arri for a non expert.

But refering to the questionner: "I've been reading that it isn't advisable to shoot in Log (i.e. sLog2) with 8 bit 4-2-0 color space"  it's not really a question of Log but a question of 4-2-0 in what banding is concerned. There are simply limitations independently of shooting flat according to the subject. (as Morgan pointed in smooth tonal changes on a clean área).
Those limitations are particularly annoying if the subject treated is unitonal, very much like in the Nina campaign I linked above. It simply ruins it and the option to shoot DSLR or similar are not posible any longuer unless some sort of Raw can be done or 444.
There is a technique in post that is used to minimize the effect of banding but at the Price of grain added. Very Little can be done in this área at the Price point we are dealing with. Hey, don't they have to justify a 60.000 bucks camera?
« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 07:58:05 PM by fredjeang2 » Logged
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« Reply #38 on: August 19, 2014, 11:26:46 PM »
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here's a still export of a quick test we did with our a7s...stock slog2 /3200 iso AWB  and a 2 second grade...2 still lifes
are from 120fps (defaults to apsc and 720p on this mode) tungsten lights/tungsten WB/ PP1/160 iso/ NO gradeing...
struggling with the metabones version3 adaptor and its freezes...version 4 of the adaptor comes next week and we will put
this little puppy on a paid job...will post results...try PP4 with its parameters, seems promising in lower ISO's

www.sanjaynarayan.com

 
« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 11:41:06 PM by sanjaynarayan » Logged
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« Reply #39 on: August 20, 2014, 04:08:53 AM »
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We're into production this week and due to the speed and style I planned on shooting the majority of the campaign with the 70d, maybe some gh3 and even the blackmagic pocket.

After testing, I will probably shoot the majority of the footage with the RED scarlet and later in LA, the RED 1s.

I'm really camera agnostic, but overall nothing I use, own, rented or tried comes close to the REDs.   The 70 d is ok, but thin, like most dslr cameras, in fact the gh3 has a more robust file though the 70d has a larger sensor and more control over dof.

Now, just loaded the technicolor log last night, will test it today, because the 70d is very prone to crushing the blacks.

All in all the 70d is a joy to use as the form factor is just about the right size with a wooden camera cage, allows for quick movements and fast action, where the RED1s are larger and slower, the Scarlet somewhere in between.   The black magic pocket camera has a nice file, but the limitations of battery use and what it takes to make the camera really workable turns it into a small easy to use camera to a form factor as larger as a heavy dslr, so the benefits are limited, though in all fairness I'm just begging to explore the bmpcc.

Personally, I don't care about numbers, bit rates, whatever is advertised because those can fool you and the only thing that matters is the final look and if the camera allows you to work fluid enough to get the feel, concept of the shoot and color grade to the look.

One thing that bothers me after a few years of working PL lenses is going back to the canon lenses for digital cinema.  The canon lenses are sharp and have beautiful roll off, but the breathing is so noticeable, even on wides like a 20mm that it's so annoying and obvious. 

I guess there is a reason that PL's costs so dearly.

One things I've noticed is how well the old gh3 holds up.  I'm not wild about the faux color it produces and wish it had a larger sensor for dof control, but in grading the gh3 get's close to the reds in grading which always surprises me.

BTW:  I know RED is a love hate thing for most dop's and operators, but for the price, the final look, I still think RED does the best job of any serious digital cinema camera maker.

IMO

BC

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