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Author Topic: Hasselblad in trouble?  (Read 5883 times)
NickT
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« Reply #40 on: May 14, 2014, 02:42:12 PM »
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My information is that the rumours are exactly that.

My sources tell me that the owners have just laid out a long term for the company and have lot's of exciting things in the pipeline so I think we can lay this one to rest.

(Cross posted to DPI)
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« Reply #41 on: May 14, 2014, 05:18:22 PM »
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I think that at the end of the day, rumors makes the Internet a little bit more fun. Cheesy
Eduardo

My information is that the rumours are exactly that.

My sources tell me that the owners have just laid out a long term for the company and have lot's of exciting things in the pipeline so I think we can lay this one to rest.

(Cross posted to DPI)
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Joe Towner
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« Reply #42 on: May 15, 2014, 11:33:28 AM »
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To David and Erik's points, it doesn't matter what the raw material costs of a digital back.  Phase and Hass have to maintain a price point no matter what chips get put in it.  If they put out their 50mp CMOS product at $15k, how many people, who have already written you a giant check, would they piss off, and how much would they devalue everything else they have put out over the last few years?  Toss in the markup that a dealer takes, which has to be more than $2k based on the cost of doing a sale (even if it's just one guy handling this level of client, he's got to make a sizable wage).  The ecosystem that mf requires, loaners, demos and rentals, has a cost, and that has to balance out against the sales.

Until Pentax can match the level of service, support and rental inventory across the world, they need to keep their price as low as possible.
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david distefano
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« Reply #43 on: May 15, 2014, 01:14:00 PM »
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To David and Erik's points, it doesn't matter what the raw material costs of a digital back.  Phase and Hass have to maintain a price point no matter what chips get put in it.  If they put out their 50mp CMOS product at $15k, how many people, who have already written you a giant check, would they piss off, and how much would they devalue everything else they have put out over the last few years?  Toss in the markup that a dealer takes, which has to be more than $2k based on the cost of doing a sale (even if it's just one guy handling this level of client, he's got to make a sizable wage).  The ecosystem that mf requires, loaners, demos and rentals, has a cost, and that has to balance out against the sales.

Until Pentax can match the level of service, support and rental inventory across the world, they need to keep their price as low as possible.

yes, what you say is true in some ways, but on the other hand how many more customers will they have if they compete with the pentax price point. do you want to keep your status and lose potential customers (those that do not make up the 5%ers) who want to enter mfdb arena. these new customers only choice will be pentax. they must price aggressively and compete for those new customers.  i know people disagree, but for less money today you get a considerably more powerful computer for a lot less than you payed 2 years ago. not the same in mf digital backs. hell a s/h p25 which is 10 years old are trying to be sold for $4k to as high as $7k. based on the pentax 645z price a p25 should be no more than $1.5K. hasselblad and leaf are in some ways trying to compete with their specials on 40mp camera at $13k which is still a $4k premium and 10mp smaller. from 2011 to 2012 professional photographers who used in their business mfd cameras decreased by 25%. you can't tell me that the nikon d800 and the high prices for mfdb's didn't play a major role in that decrease. what will happen when the nikon/sony 54mp sensor camera is released?
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Joe Towner
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« Reply #44 on: May 15, 2014, 01:46:31 PM »
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yes, what you say is true in some ways, but on the other hand how many more customers will they have if they compete with the pentax price point. do you want to keep your status and lose potential customers (those that do not make up the 5%ers) who want to enter mfdb arena. these new customers only choice will be pentax. they must price aggressively and compete for those new customers.  i know people disagree, but for less money today you get a considerably more powerful computer for a lot less than you payed 2 years ago. not the same in mf digital backs. hell a s/h p25 which is 10 years old are trying to be sold for $4k to as high as $7k. based on the pentax 645z price a p25 should be no more than $1.5K. hasselblad and leaf are in some ways trying to compete with their specials on 40mp camera at $13k which is still a $4k premium and 10mp smaller. from 2011 to 2012 professional photographers who used in their business mfd cameras decreased by 25%. you can't tell me that the nikon d800 and the high prices for mfdb's didn't play a major role in that decrease. what will happen when the nikon/sony 54mp sensor camera is released?

Computer technology has a mass market to support companies (some of which are barely breaking even on their desktops).  DMF doesn't, won't and can't scale to that size.  Glass will always be expensive (image circle size and IQ), zoom lenses are extremely limited, and there is no such thing as a 400mm (in 35mm equivalent) lens being produced.  You remember those netbooks running linux, and how everyone thought that Apple was going to fail because they kept their laptops priced at $1k for the basic Macbook?  The perceived market for dmf is just that, a bunch of folks wishing they could afford it.  The home grown dmf back discussed on here was interesting, and while I'd like to see it succeed, until people put money in, it's just a bunch of talk.

The question is why do photographers need dmf over a camera like a D800/A7r.  What does the Phase or Hass systems give them that they can't get cheaper with 35mm gear?  The $13k specials from Phase and Hass serve a specific need - to offload inventory of quality products at a 'discount' while keeping the perceived value high.  Personally, I would highly recommend the high MP 35mm gear over a 40MP dmf system unless there is a specific need that can only be done with dmf.  Hass and Phase need to take care of their existing customers, and that includes not devaluing their existing investment.

Pentax needs to worry that the market clamoring for the 50MP CMOS will sustain their business for a while and it's not limited to a few thousand units.  If the Pentax doesn't sell well, at what point will they pull back to a Japan only business?
« Last Edit: May 15, 2014, 01:52:48 PM by Joe Towner » Logged
eronald
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« Reply #45 on: May 15, 2014, 03:02:35 PM »
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To David and Erik's points, it doesn't matter what the raw material costs of a digital back.  Phase and Hass have to maintain a price point no matter what chips get put in it.  If they put out their 50mp CMOS product at $15k, how many people, who have already written you a giant check, would they piss off, and how much would they devalue everything else they have put out over the last few years?  Toss in the markup that a dealer takes, which has to be more than $2k based on the cost of doing a sale (even if it's just one guy handling this level of client, he's got to make a sizable wage).  The ecosystem that mf requires, loaners, demos and rentals, has a cost, and that has to balance out against the sales.

Until Pentax can match the level of service, support and rental inventory across the world, they need to keep their price as low as possible.

I guess I can pick at your facts - H4D40 promotions were all over the place at 10K+ Euros, over the past few years. The H5D was a price rise, but the H5D50 as a direct substitute for the H4D40 (yes, 25% more MP after a few years) can surely be sold at the *same* price without (m)any complaints from existing users.

As for opinions of the level of service, we may be so lucky as to have honest and helpful, seriously valuable dealers on this forum such as Doug and Steve, but there are also a good number of useless and snotty idiots out there, and in those areas Pentax will doubtless sell well. I have no doubt that Doug and Steve will fare well in the future, the goodwill they have now acquired is their biggest asset.

 Re pricing and demand for the Z, Pentax seem to have been around for longer than Phase, selling well regarded consumer, prosumer and pro cams, and I'm sure they are big boys and can do the maths quite well. As Synn pointed out, they have a big corporation footing their bills so they can afford to invest a little without asking their bankers, and also they have real weight with Sony because of the huge number of smaller sensors they purchase.

 Regarding the rental model, well I guess I would prefer to pay $8K for a Pentax or $5K for a used Hassy on this forum, or  $125 for a rental Pentax, rather than pay $500 a day for a rental Phase IQ250. But then I don't get paid $10K a day or whatever for Kate Moss to smile for me Smiley

 
YMMV Smiley

Edmund

 
« Last Edit: May 15, 2014, 03:41:15 PM by eronald » Logged

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Joe Towner
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« Reply #46 on: May 15, 2014, 05:20:09 PM »
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As for opinions of the level of service, we may be so lucky as to have honest and helpful, seriously valuable dealers on this forum such as Doug and Steve, but there are also a good number of useless and snotty idiots out there, and in those areas Pentax will doubtless sell well. I have no doubt that Doug and Steve will fare well in the future, the goodwill they have now acquired is their biggest asset.

I fully agree, we're spoiled buy the folks who hand out here, dealers and end users alike.  Doug and Steve add product knowledge that makes owning a system a lot easier, and I think that Pentax will have a dealer learning curve.  Customer experiences will partially dictate overall sales, and dealers are the major variable left out there.
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« Reply #47 on: May 15, 2014, 08:47:48 PM »
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Interesting thing: Lotsa people here chastising Phase and Hassy for their prices and championing the Pentax.
Yet to see anyone putting their money down for a 645Z though. Meanwhile, plenty of active posters are Phase and Hassy owners Wink
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« Reply #48 on: May 15, 2014, 09:57:10 PM »
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Interesting thing: Lotsa people here chastising Phase and Hassy for their prices and championing the Pentax.
Yet to see anyone putting their money down for a 645Z though. Meanwhile, plenty of active posters are Phase and Hassy owners Wink


Several guys who own Pentax 645D have posted here, they seem satisfied customers.

I don't think deliveries of the Z have started yet. You can go and take some more pictures, we promise to call you back when the big shootouts and comparison reviews start coming in.

Edmund
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« Reply #49 on: May 15, 2014, 10:26:12 PM »
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Several guys who own Pentax 645D have posted here, they seem satisfied customers.

I don't think deliveries of the Z have started yet. You can go and take some more pictures, we promise to call you back when the big shootouts and comparison reviews start coming in.

Edmund
Way to not get (Or pretend to not get) the point.

I prefer to be called back by someone who uses a medium format system or at least has some decent experience with a current generation system in the recent past.

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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #50 on: May 16, 2014, 12:11:12 AM »
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Hi,

Those promos got me interested in actually buying into MFD, but I got good advice that a P45+ would suit my needs better. Also, lenses for the H-series are not exactly cheap, while used V-series lenses are available at low prices. So I am in V-series and P45+.

A good dealer is obviously helpful, I would agree that Doug and Steve are most knowledgeable, honest and helpful. But, I was shooting SLRs and DSLRs for something like 40+ years and never needed a dealer. There is something called the manual.

Regarding sales of the Pentax 645D, some very happy owners posted on it here. I also got the impression they were selling well in Japan and possibly other places.

Obviously, the Pentax 645D has hard place in the market, competing head on with the Nikon D800/D800E and the Sony A7r. It also seems to have some issues with shutter related vibrations a problem it has in common with A7r. That kind of vibration would be most noted by landscape photographers, but far less in handheld shooting or using flash in studio. Leaf shutter system don't have that problem. A way to fix this seems to be electronic first curtain, but it seems the 645Z doesn't have that feature.

Electronic first curtain is great, by the way. Using live view, the shutter needs to be cycled before exposure, with electronic first curtain in live view exposure can start immediately and vibration free.

The Pentax 645Z is a new camera offering similar capabilities to top class DSLRs at a not much higher price. It also offers a live view implementation that is probably very good.

Ricoh also relaunches the 645 lens line, so it seems probable that they try to be a significant player in the market.

Personally, I guess that competition from high and DSLR and mirrorless will intensify. Zeiss, Sigma and may be even Sony are introducing high quality lenses for full frame 135 digital, and next generation sensors will probably be around 50+ MP.

MF backs for technical cameras will always make a lot of sense.

Best regards
Erik

I guess I can pick at your facts - H4D40 promotions were all over the place at 10K+ Euros, over the past few years. The H5D was a price rise, but the H5D50 as a direct substitute for the H4D40 (yes, 25% more MP after a few years) can surely be sold at the *same* price without (m)any complaints from existing users.

As for opinions of the level of service, we may be so lucky as to have honest and helpful, seriously valuable dealers on this forum such as Doug and Steve, but there are also a good number of useless and snotty idiots out there, and in those areas Pentax will doubtless sell well. I have no doubt that Doug and Steve will fare well in the future, the goodwill they have now acquired is their biggest asset.

 Re pricing and demand for the Z, Pentax seem to have been around for longer than Phase, selling well regarded consumer, prosumer and pro cams, and I'm sure they are big boys and can do the maths quite well. As Synn pointed out, they have a big corporation footing their bills so they can afford to invest a little without asking their bankers, and also they have real weight with Sony because of the huge number of smaller sensors they purchase.

 Regarding the rental model, well I guess I would prefer to pay $8K for a Pentax or $5K for a used Hassy on this forum, or  $125 for a rental Pentax, rather than pay $500 a day for a rental Phase IQ250. But then I don't get paid $10K a day or whatever for Kate Moss to smile for me Smiley

 
YMMV Smiley

Edmund

 
« Last Edit: May 16, 2014, 02:17:01 AM by ErikKaffehr » Logged

Chris Livsey
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« Reply #51 on: May 16, 2014, 02:14:07 PM »
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 Hass and Phase need to take care of their existing customers, and that includes not devaluing their existing investment.

They have in the past largely had that in their own hands with trade in - up deals. That has strangled the S/H market and artificially kept those prices high. Good for existing customers I agree but that strategy has massively restricted the customer base they have and is now coming back to bite as 35mm comes up to meet them in quality and pixel count. New customers must be increasingly hard to convince to make that investment and have the makers protect it.
From the discussions on this forum many are also of the opinion that the protection offered has not been, shall we say, generous.
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david distefano
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« Reply #52 on: May 16, 2014, 04:31:57 PM »
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  Hass and Phase need to take care of their existing customers, and that includes not devaluing their existing investment.
     actually neither company is obligated to protect the value of the equipment that they sell. a home is a real investment and who is there to protect the homeowner from devaluation. a mfdb is a tool not an investment. you buy it for what it can do for you not what its value will be in 3 or 4 years. as you say the market is small for mfd photography. well why is that? its because of the outrages prices for the new equipment. i'm not talking about good quality lenses, but the digital backs. as i said earlier, ebay is a very good barometer of what these s/h digital backs are really worth. see the items that do sell like the p25+ for $3k. that is what people will pay so that is all it is worth and no wishful thinking will make it other wise. so in effect, not withstanding what hasselblad or phase one say, the pentax 645z will become the de facto price point for a 50mp sensor in a mfd camera.
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« Reply #53 on: May 16, 2014, 04:51:14 PM »
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Interesting thing: Lotsa people here chastising Phase and Hassy for their prices and championing the Pentax.
Yet to see anyone putting their money down for a 645Z though. Meanwhile, plenty of active posters are Phase and Hassy owners Wink

Maybe that's why Pentax are sitting on their hands re full frame, they want to maintain a clear division between their prosumer models and the 645 which a FF would blur. Such a shame as the K5 was a solid little camera and maybe the K3 is too, if they could have incorporated all the plus points of these cameras into a FF then I'd have certainly stuck with them.
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« Reply #54 on: May 17, 2014, 05:29:27 PM »
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I dislike these type of rumors.  It flies in the face of journalistic standards, where multiple sources are verified before publishing.

This type of rumor is hurtful and honestly who would like this type of comment directed towards them or their business?

There is not a single brand made that I haven't heard a negative rumor, sometimes the guy behind the camera counter, sometimes on the web, but most of those rumors were wrong.

I've heard Canon medium format rumors for 8 years.

I think we all tend to forget that behind a brand name are the people that work.     It's not the brand, or the venture capitalists that concern me, but it is the human capital that gets damaged when these rumors grow.

Everybody is entitled to an opinion,but it's just that . . . an opinion.  

I have my own opinion about equipment and if I honestly reflect back, more than 1/2 of my views change with time.  

This section of the forum has developed a strange tone.  About 1/3 of the participants complain mightily about the cost of specialty cameras, though most of the same people haven't purchased, or used  one in 5 or more years, some never.

I don't get it, because buying any camera is an elective.  No client, no person I know forces anyone into purchasing one brand, or format.

The advanced amateur or professional uses what they think is best and I've never heard of anyone buying a camera with the thought it would be worse that what they currently use, or a wasteful purchase.

IMO

BC




I agree.

There is no information in that article, and while I don't know anybody who actually liked the disguised Sony's called Lunar, etc, it did not make Hasselblad a joke - as the article suggested.

Hasselblad MF cameras and backs are great products.

I could imagine they lost money on the rebadged Sony's....

So, someone tries to buy Hasselblad and spreading rumors to lower its value?

One cannot just take an article like the quoted one at bare face value.


For Hasselblad's future:



Hopefully, Hasselblad unloads all the non-Hasselblad rebadged products and goes back on course.

No problem if they created a sort of pocket MF camera (if you remember the Plaubel Makina - Wim Wenders used it extensively to create his photographic work), now that I could get.

But they shouldn't any take an ice pick to their brand.
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« Reply #55 on: May 18, 2014, 01:41:03 AM »
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I dislike these type of rumors.  It flies in the face of journalistic standards, where multiple sources are verified before publishing.

This type of rumor is hurtful and honestly who would like this type of comment directed towards them or their business?

There is not a single brand made that I haven't heard a negative rumor, sometimes the guy behind the camera counter, sometimes on the web, but most of those rumors were wrong.

I've heard Canon medium format rumors for 8 years.

I think we all tend to forget that behind a brand name are the people that work.     It's not the brand, or the venture capitalists that concern me, but it is the human capital that gets damaged when these rumors grow.

Everybody is entitled to an opinion,but it's just that . . . an opinion.  

I have my own opinion about equipment and if I honestly reflect back, more than 1/2 of my views change with time.  

This section of the forum has developed a strange tone.  About 1/3 of the participants complain mightily about the cost of specialty cameras, though most of the same people haven't purchased, or used  one in 5 or more years, some never.

I don't get it, because buying any camera is an elective.  No client, no person I know forces anyone into purchasing one brand, or format.

The advanced amateur or professional uses what they think is best and I've never heard of anyone buying a camera with the thought it would be worse that what they currently use, or a wasteful purchase.

IMO

BC


+1
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eronald
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« Reply #56 on: May 18, 2014, 04:38:15 AM »
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I dislike these type of rumors.  It flies in the face of journalistic standards, where multiple sources are verified before publishing.

This type of rumor is hurtful and honestly who would like this type of comment directed towards them or their business?

There is not a single brand made that I haven't heard a negative rumor, sometimes the guy behind the camera counter, sometimes on the web, but most of those rumors were wrong.

I've heard Canon medium format rumors for 8 years.

I think we all tend to forget that behind a brand name are the people that work.     It's not the brand, or the venture capitalists that concern me, but it is the human capital that gets damaged when these rumors grow.

Everybody is entitled to an opinion,but it's just that . . . an opinion.  

I have my own opinion about equipment and if I honestly reflect back, more than 1/2 of my views change with time.  

This section of the forum has developed a strange tone.  About 1/3 of the participants complain mightily about the cost of specialty cameras, though most of the same people haven't purchased, or used  one in 5 or more years, some never.

I don't get it, because buying any camera is an elective.  No client, no person I know forces anyone into purchasing one brand, or format.

The advanced amateur or professional uses what they think is best and I've never heard of anyone buying a camera with the thought it would be worse that what they currently use, or a wasteful purchase.

IMO

BC




As the devil's advocate, I would like to say that the fact that the rumors site does not publish its sources doesn't imply *they *don't verify the information, or that facts do not merit discussion. This is called "source confidentiality", or if you prefer the  "deep throat doctrine". As an example, US dronestrikes and targeting are often discussed in the media, although information is never sourced officially, especially when random civilian victims are involved.

A good number of publicly held camera companies have in the past years published detailed accounts without major problems accruing to them or their dealer network, although Olympus did have some issues due to disclosures by a vindictive ex-employee.

In my opinion, the timely publication of Hasselblad's accounts would immediately quell any untrue or indeed malicious rumors about its financial status ...

There is a role for "unattributed" material. Of course, no material is launched without some intent, and I would agree with you that like drones, rumors are malicious instruments that can cause substantial damage to their targets, and even possibly imply collateral damage Tongue
 
Edmund

PS. As I wrote somewhere else, when I was employed and paid to edit "rumors", mostly everything I wrote was sourced from firms competitors or ex-employees, and verified before publication. But never attributed. And yes, the sources always had ulterior intent, but this did not invalidate the information itself.

« Last Edit: May 18, 2014, 10:58:22 AM by eronald » Logged

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