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Author Topic: New forum category on images comments  (Read 13690 times)
BernardLanguillier
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« on: September 15, 2005, 10:38:44 PM »
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since that one is gone with the wind, I thought I would just restart a new one.

We had been dicussing the interested of adding a new category to the forum where people could exchange constructive comments on each others' images.

The main goal is to get feedback from peers so as to progress and get an idea of how others perceive an image.

We could start with a very simple implementation based on the current forum architecture, with something like
- a new forum category "images commenting",
- one new thread woujld have to be started per image for which comments are expected.
- Guidelines for commenting would be useful, but having one or several thread in the forum category where people would maintain an on-going discussion about the process of commenting would it itself be a sort of guidline already.

Kind of hard to summarize 150 posts in a few lines, but go ahead guys...

Regards,
Bernard
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A few images online here!
jdemott
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« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2005, 11:28:35 AM »
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Yes, it is too bad that thread was lost.  There were some good ideas from a number of folks.  I briefly tried to find a cached version on Google but had no luck--perhaps someone else will have a better search strategy.  Here are a few thoughts that come to mind:

First, there is nothing preventing any of us from posting photos for comment now.  Some of us have done that in the past and have received generally very constructive comments.  The case for establishing a new forum category will be much stronger if members have already demonstrated an interest in participating and shown a willingness to provide useful feedback.

Second, the most useful guideline would be a request that people submitting a photo for comment describe a specific photographic objective or specific question that they would like to have addressed by other members.  Examples of reasonable questions might be "how could I better emphasize the color of this scene?" or "does the foreground in this this photo add or detract from the overall composition?" since they show that the photographer has given some thought to the photo and is interested in some serious discussion of it.  On the other hand, posts along the lines of "please comment on my picture" don't show much thought and are more likely to generate only platitudes or flames.

Third, the website feature that would best promote discussion of images would be the ability to easily upload photos from our local hard drives to the LL server.  I find it rather cumbersome to have to upload to a separate server and then type in the URL for the file.  I doubt there would be a serious problem of using too much storage space or bandwidth as long as there was some reasonable limit on file sizes, say 250K.

John
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John DeMott
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« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2005, 12:44:03 PM »
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Bernard, thanks for restarting this. If you hadn't I was thinking of doing it. As you know, I am in favour of this idea.

To quickly summarize my previous contributions and some thoughts of others I retained:

(1) We only need very simple guidelines: keep the discussion constructive, no insults, do not personalize it, and stick to the artistic and technical aspects of the photographs.

(2) Within those limits, it is open discussion between photographers, so nothing prevents the person submitting the work from responding to comments of others.

(3) Submittors are free to accompany their photographs with some commentary if they think it useful, but in general one expects photographs to speak for themselves.

(4) It isn't a mutual admiration society - people will say what they think subject to (1).

(5) Given the above, the forum will take on its own character as determined by the participants. Participants will self-select accordingly.

(6) There should be a moderator with a light hand in case something goes out of control and deserves intervention.

(7) With respect to format, it can start as simply as the recent discussion of Lisa's image: it is posted within the Board format and comments simply follow. This takes no particular administrative effort - perhaps only specification of space constraints. If the whole initiative has traction, the administrators may want to think of turning it into something a bit fancier with nicer display options, etc. But not yet.

Hope this helps.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
theophilus
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« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2005, 02:24:58 PM »
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I think it's a good idea.  Suggestions:

1) Multiple images in a single post only if it is of the same subject.  On other sites I'll immediately leave a thread if there are 10 different shots posted for critique.
2) Max of 1 new post per day in that forum will keep it from getting flooded and make people think harder about what to post.  Should contribute to better conversations as well.

/my2cents.
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Lisa Nikodym
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« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2005, 05:01:07 PM »
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All the suggestions above sound excellent to me.  Add me to the "supporters" list.  Smiley

Lisa
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mikeseb
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« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2005, 06:38:12 PM »
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I'm in. I just hope we can pull it off like adults, given the "discussion" (akin to what's heard in a schoolyard) raging over in Landscape & Nature under "Sunrise B&N".

I'm more than a little tired of the mutual-admiration society over at photo.net, my usual site to post work. And there is not much appreciation for intelligent criticism delivered with wit. I trust we can do better here.
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michael sebastian
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« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2005, 07:32:34 PM »
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For me, the schoolyard discussion about <Sunrise B&N> is  history. I'm not worried - L-L folks won't foster the survival of such rubbish for long. The easiest way of dealing with the occasional temper tantrum is to ignore it and it will go away. As long as the venture gets off to a good start with several serious discussions it will establish a standard of decorum and dialogue that posters will ignore at their peril.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Ray
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« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2005, 07:59:57 PM »
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The easiest way of dealing with the occasional temper tantrum is to ignore it and it will go away.
Mark,
You know that the temper tantrums resulting from the inaugural performance of Stravinsky's 'Rite of Spring' did not affect the enduring quality of the work.

The work eventually stands on its merits whatever the initial tantrums.

With any honest discussion of art, such reactions are inevitable and unavoidable.

To those in favour of a critique section which encourages honest comment, it's going to be a hotbed of insults, if it's worth anything.
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Lisa Nikodym
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« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2005, 08:14:16 PM »
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I'm in. I just hope we can pull it off like adults, given the "discussion" (akin to what's heard in a schoolyard) raging over in Landscape & Nature under "Sunrise B&N".

Don't worry.  Sometime after that one started, I posted an image for critique too, and everyone was perfectly well-behaved.    A shame it was one of the threads completely lost during the changeover...

Lisa
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2005, 08:24:09 PM »
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Ray, what happened in the Paris Opera in 1913 was a disgrace that became legandary because the Rite of Spring  ushered in 20th century music. None of our photographs will likely achieve that kind of distinction, while we can all live without the surrounding commotion. A discussion forum focusing on the artistic and technical merits of photographs will be worth much more without the insults than with them. For one thing, it will be more civilised, and that will attract - or at least not repel - knowledgeable people who won't stand for being insulted. (I think we've already had quite enough today being told that Occidental eyes can't appreciate empty space - please folks, spare us from any more of that rubbish.) If I dare say so, your argument is akin to the one that hockey violence is necessary to spice-up the game. I've never bought into that theory either, but that's another talk show......................
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
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« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2005, 08:25:26 PM »
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And yes - agreed - the discussion about Lisa's photograph was a model of how it should and can be.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2005, 08:18:12 AM »
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By popular demand I've now added a new section called User Critiques under The Art of Photography.

This section will be self moderating. I assume that regular members will ensure that discussions are kept civil.

Michael
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jani
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« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2005, 08:26:59 AM »
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Thanks, Michael, I think I speak for most of us when I say that this is much appreciated!
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Jan
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« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2005, 08:36:36 AM »
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Thank you!
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2005, 08:47:14 AM »
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Thanks Michael, and much appreciated.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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boku
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« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2005, 11:15:21 AM »
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Quote
Thanks Michael, and much appreciated.
Thank you Michael. Is it possible to move my current critique to the new forum section?
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Bob Kulon

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Play it Straight and Play it True, my Brother.
Ray
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« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2005, 09:20:52 PM »
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A discussion forum focusing on the artistic and technical merits of photographs will be worth much more without the insults than with them. For one thing, it will be more civilised, and that will attract - or at least not repel - knowledgeable people who won't stand for being insulted.
Mark,
It all sounds rather antisceptic to me. Political correctness is politics, not art. Although perhaps one could describe 'policitcal correctness' as the art of politics, so perhaps there is a connection there after all.

But don't get me wrong. I'm not advocating gratuitous insults for the sake of spicing things up. But we are at least protected from the fisticuffs that took place during the first performance of The Rite of Spring. Do you not remember the 'nursery' ryme of your childhood, "Sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me."

I have to say, I always feel restrained when commenting on someone's photo. We live in a society that seems to rely upon lots of little white lies for its smooth running (as well as a few whoppers). Tell the truth, bluntly and unequivocally (as one sees it of course, I'm not into absolutes) and one gets into serious trouble.
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #17 on: September 21, 2005, 10:45:43 PM »
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Ray,

Now that Michael has established the space and told us it will be self-monitoring, I guess the onus will be on us to set the standards and make sure it stays civil - so yes, there is a risk it will be somewhat anti-septic, but I think nonetheless very interesting. I think one can tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth - the deal is in how its said. So let's see how she goes!
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Jonathan Wienke
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« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2005, 11:49:35 PM »
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I posted an image in the critique section, and so far things have been constructive and civil. So far, so good...
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camilla
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« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2005, 11:51:07 PM »
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Thank you Michael!

Well as someone said in the famous thread a few days ago, we are a family and I seconded that in my comment in that thread- which was actually the last one written- thank goodness.

I'm sure it will work because we enjoy what we do and if we are more passionate on one particular day than the previous days, well...I'd say this...

 Let's just pretend we are all having dinner in Italy with a couple of bottles of wine on the table and we have no time restrictions and we all make a lot of noise when we talk but in the end, we are family and are just enjoying ourselves...

Good luck and I'll be looking forward to this new thread.
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