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Author Topic: display calibration problem & other questions  (Read 1275 times)
FrankG
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« on: June 10, 2014, 08:48:18 PM »
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Mac OS X 10.6.8
Mac intel tower with nvidia 7300gt graphics card
Dell Ultrasharp display 2007FP (dvi connection = no contrast control)
i1 Display 2 & Eye-One match3 v3.6.3

I use EyeOne i1 Display2  to target values of Gamma 2.2, White Point (Col Temp) 6500K, Luminance 110 cd/m2.
I adjusted my monitor controls (Brightness and individual RGB)  to max Brightness and set the individual RGB controls to 100%.
I achieve the Gamma and WP but only get to less than half the Brightness target and cant find a way to increase the Brightness/Luminance.
There is no Brightness slider in the System Prefs>Display as I think the OS defers to the 3rd party monitors controls.

Perhaps not being able to get even close to the Luminance target means that my monitor has to be replaced? But first I want to make sure I am doing everything I can to fix the situation.
And if the monitor is done, I need to find the least expensive monitor that'll do the pro calibration job and am looking at  the Viewsonic VP2365-LED 23 inch.

If I am printing on my Epson with paper profiles then I can make adjustments to the target values  to get the right screen to print match (I understand that the light under which to evaluate prints should be around D50 (5000K). And I understand that the ideal luminance level is also dependent on ambient conditions.
Here's what I don't get -  more often it is a case of submitting a file to either a pro lab (for c-prints) or to a client who will reproduce the image in an ad or brochure or magazine or whatever.
With Gamma, WP & Luminance settings being flexible and slightly different for everyone, how do I know what targets to use to ensure that they/you will see the same image as i am seeing on my screen.
And of course the other is website images - how do I know you are seeing (on your differently calibrated monitor) the same image I'm seeing. For example, if I photoshop an image and it looks good to me on my screen which is set to Gamma 2.2, WP 6500 but a current Luminance (which i cant seem to adjust...see above) of say 50 cd/m2 then what are you likely to be seeing....
Thanks,
Frank
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D Fosse
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« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2014, 07:06:33 AM »
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Are you sure the luminance reading is correct? 50 cd/m2 is awfully low, you'd have to sit in a pitch black room to get anything remotely useful out of that. And even then it's low. If OTOH the reading is correct, and you're really looking at 50 cd/m2, that monitor is long gone. I wouldn't send anything out to others at all, or post anything on the web. You've no idea how it will look in a "normal" situation.

Anyway. If you can get your calibration white point target (luminance and temperature) to where you "see" paper white on screen, that's half the battle. If you know what kind of paper it will be printed on, you can also to a certain extent predict black point / contrast. The rest more or less follows. And then, having a print profile or knowing the final destination CMYK for offset, you can soft proof to check clipping. Of course within the limits of the display gamut.

As for a new monitor, stretch your budget as much as you can. You won't regret it. It's the one piece of equipment you have where quality has direct impact on your work. A cheap CPU just uses a little more time to do the same job; but a cheap monitor does a cheap job and you lose control over what you send out because you can't see it. A safer bet than the Viewsonic would be a NEC EA223, or an Eizo Flexscan EV2336 / Foris FS2333. A little bit more expensive, but worth it.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 07:17:18 AM by D Fosse » Logged
FrankG
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« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2014, 09:18:40 AM »
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Yes, I am getting 50 cd/m2.
And the Native WP is only 4800
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digitaldog
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« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2014, 09:28:46 AM »
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50 cd/m2 is way, way too low. Raise the print viewing conditions. You want to be more in the ballpark of 120-150 cd/m2.
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Andrew Rodney
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http://digitaldog.net/
Tim Lookingbill
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« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2014, 01:32:05 PM »
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Quote
Dell Ultrasharp display 2007FP (dvi connection = no contrast control)

That display came out around 2006, at least that's the year the first review shows up in a Google search. Might be time to consider a larger, newer and better LED display.

I have a 27" LG 27ea63v-p that has DVI, VGA and HDMI connect and currently using DVI and have access to all brightness, contrast and RGB gain controls. I have its luminance calibrated to 100 cd/m2 and get screen to print matching.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 01:36:45 PM by Tim Lookingbill » Logged
FrankG
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« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2014, 03:05:30 PM »
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I am going to get a replacement -
these 3x are within about 4 dollars of each other -
Dell U2412M, Viewsonic VP2365, NEC EA223WM
Please advise
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Tim Lookingbill
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« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2014, 10:01:20 PM »
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I am going to get a replacement -
these 3x are within about 4 dollars of each other -
Dell U2412M, Viewsonic VP2365, NEC EA223WM
Please advise

Not knowledgeable enough on those models to advise you on. I can only tell you that my previous LCD was a factory direct refurbed Dell 2209WA replacement for one I bought from some unknown sole proprietor on Amazon which had warm/cool color temp non-uniformity across the screen. The refurbed lasted 3 years before it exhibited distracting oddly shaped dark grid like artifacts in the lower left corner. I bought the LG at Best Buy because I wanted to avoid all the shipping return hassles due to quality variances within the same model.

Considering my first experience dealing with Dells the odds I'ld have a poor experience indicates it might be hit or miss concerning quality control issues. NEC appears to have a better reputation in this regard but I can't say this from experience.
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D Fosse
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« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2014, 01:48:56 AM »
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which had warm/cool color temp non-uniformity across the screen.

For Dell this is "within specification" and they will not replace a unit that has this. This is official Dell policy and everybody should be aware of this risk before buying. This is how they can sell seemingly high-spec'ed monitors at bargain prices. But the parameters that really matter, like screen uniformity and some other things, aren't in the spec sheet.

The only two manufacturers that can be relied upon to deliver consistently high basic quality, in all price ranges, are NEC and Eizo. They won't be as "hot" on paper, but unlike Dell they will be worth the price.
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FrankG
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« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2014, 05:34:27 AM »
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Thank you everyone
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Tim Lookingbill
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« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2014, 12:33:33 PM »
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For Dell this is "within specification" and they will not replace a unit that has this. This is official Dell policy and everybody should be aware of this risk before buying. This is how they can sell seemingly high-spec'ed monitors at bargain prices. But the parameters that really matter, like screen uniformity and some other things, aren't in the spec sheet.

The only two manufacturers that can be relied upon to deliver consistently high basic quality, in all price ranges, are NEC and Eizo. They won't be as "hot" on paper, but unlike Dell they will be worth the price.

At the time I bought my Dell 2209WA Dell must've implemented a different return policy because as I remember the Kelvin differences from left to right side on my unit was about 5800K & 6800K. Or it must've been the way I worded my complaint to a Dell CSR where I insisted such a visual screen anomaly was straining my eyes, so they gave me a replacement. I didn't tell them that it greatly affected my getting correct looking skin hues in image editing apps.

I still have the Dell refurb and it still works but the LG is such a huge improvement with regard to image quality and screen uniformity even though the basic construction seems to made by Fisher Price. Can't raise the screen up or down but it will tilt enough to rest a colorimeter flat and secure for profiling.

Also there's no heat coming off the back panel of the LED LG compared to the hotbox CCFL Dell which is a major improvement.
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D Fosse
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« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2014, 02:18:40 PM »
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I think their policy changed with the U2410. It sold massively, but a large number of units had this cyan/pink problem.

I did some research on this because I got one of these turkeys. I got my money back from the dealer, but only because I made a huge stink, and I discovered later that I was lucky. By this time Dell had stopped replacing them, probably due to sheer numbers.

This is their current official position: "Dell monitors do not have 100% color/tint uniformity specification. As long as the center 4" circle (7" circle for 27" and larger monitors) is 6500K, it meets our manufacturer specifications. The center may be 6500K, but the sides and corners may not..."

The issue continues to this day, on all of the U series models, and the above statement is all you get if you complain. A quick tour on the Dell support forum confirms it. Backlight bleed is also covered.

I'm still shocked that they can get away with this scam. These units do cost $500-1000 a pop.
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petercorb
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« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2014, 07:18:36 AM »
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Some harsh words indeed here about Dell.

I recently posted a question on this forum - http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=90029.0 - about Dell monitors and ended up buying a U2713H. See the latter topic as to why I chose Dell.

I must say that I am delighted with this device. I used my i1 Pro (old Gretag version can only Calibrate/Profile monitors) setting Native White Point and RGB adjustments and its the best screen I have ever worked on, however my experience has been limited to (many) Mac monitors.

I did get the chance to use another (same model) before I went ahead with the purchase and then had opportunity to see them both side by side when mine arrived.

They appeared to me to be identical once calibrated and profiled.

The Illumination across the screen seems perfect to me and I can't see any sign of any "backlight bleed"

I print, not only my own fine art sales, but for some very demanding photographers and have used this device for two major jobs over the last 2 weeks and found my screen to print workflow to be better than ever.

In fact, I would say that my whole workflow has been enhanced, especially "soft-proofing in LR, Mirage and Image Print.

I might add that experience, understanding one's complete process/editing and equipment, and in depth knowledge of your images is also essential, not simply relying on one piece of equipment as a panacea.

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Tim Lookingbill
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« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2014, 02:52:15 PM »
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Some harsh words indeed here about Dell...

I might add that experience, understanding one's complete process/editing and equipment, and in depth knowledge of your images is also essential, not simply relying on one piece of equipment as a panacea.

No one in this thread is suggesting any of your assertions.

No one here has indicated there is a consensus that Dell displays are an inferior product.

All that anyone (including your input) has done is relate their experience which points to an inconsistency in quality control by Dell manufacturing. Dell does not make their own display panel so all they have left to do is to design the hardware configuration and software (if supplied for end user or internal hardware integration) and have another company overseas build it for them and hopefully check their work against Dell's designed specs and standards of acceptable quality.

It's good that you've had a positive experience with Dell LED displays and hopefully this thread will motivate Dell to find a way to provide a more consistent positive experience for their customers over their competitors which there are many.
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