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Author Topic: Portland shooting  (Read 6275 times)
Jim Pascoe
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« Reply #80 on: June 14, 2014, 03:25:44 AM »
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The difference between American citizenry and most other countries is that we the citizens hold the power and grant the power to the government to administer within boundaries of our constitution. If we, collectively, feel our government is out of bounds we can vote it out, and if that fails we can force it out with our firearms.

In most other countries, power is forever 100% inherent in the government itself or worse yet, the monarchy. Non-arming of its citizenry forever ensures the government has no ultimate responsibility to its people. Serfdom.

The citizens of any country have that power - I think it's called a coup.  Do you honestly think here in England where we have no firearms if enough people wanted to overthrow the government we could not?  However we do have elections - called democracy, where we can vote out governments if we wish.  Our Monarchy has no power in fact.
And I thought the USA was a leading democracy - shame your government has to live with the ever-present threat of an armed insurrection by it's citizens!

Jim
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Isaac
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« Reply #81 on: June 14, 2014, 10:02:26 AM »
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And I thought the USA was a leading democracy…

Flawed democracy - "So, which countries do we rate as the most democratic in the world? This group includes the five Nordic countries (Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Norway and Sweden) along with New Zealand, Australia, Switzerland, Canada and tiny Luxembourg. (The US comes in at 19th.)"  (UK 14th)

Why America doesn't work
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Ben Rubinstein
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« Reply #82 on: June 14, 2014, 01:30:25 PM »
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http://www.dilbert.com/blog/entry/school_shootings/

Interesting take. I rather like it. Science and data rather than pushing political agendas.
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Ligament
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« Reply #83 on: June 14, 2014, 03:47:40 PM »
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So isn't the answer to go and shoot a few government officials then? It's all very well mumbling on about the right to carry arms to prevent tyranny and yet not do anything about it when tyranny threatens.

No, not at all. Those who would infringe upon our constitutionally protected civil RIGHTS secretly desire we are a blood thirsty bunch to justify your paranoia and your desire to deny us our rights. In your ideal world, gun owners would be uncontrollable violent animals to justify your prejudices.

There is still hope that democracy will prevail. I think and hope we are far from violent civil uprising, and god forbid that ever happens.
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Ligament
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« Reply #84 on: June 14, 2014, 03:51:35 PM »
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The citizens of any country have that power - I think it's called a coup.  Do you honestly think here in England where we have no firearms if enough people wanted to overthrow the government we could not?  However we do have elections - called democracy, where we can vote out governments if we wish.  Our Monarchy has no power in fact.
And I thought the USA was a leading democracy - shame your government has to live with the ever-present threat of an armed insurrection by it's citizens!

Jim

That our government has to live with the ever-present threat of an armed insurrection by it's citizens is a GOOD THING. It is a very, very good thing. Generally people such as yourself view the national government as a benevolent institution which must not be questioned. I concur it may be a remnant of serfdom ingrained into your culture. In the US, the government is a necessary evil, at best a trained monkey that needs to be closely controlled and monitored by its citizens.

Your lack of firearms would make government overthrow much more difficult, but not impossible. I agree with that.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2014, 04:04:38 PM by Ligament » Logged
Justinr
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« Reply #85 on: June 14, 2014, 03:54:16 PM »
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No, not at all. Those who would infringe upon our constitutionally protected civil RIGHTS secretly desire we are a blood thirsty bunch to justify your paranoia and your desire to deny us our rights. In your ideal world, gun owners would be uncontrollable violent animals to justify your prejudices.

There is still hope that democracy will prevail. I think and hope we are far from violent civil uprising, and god forbid that ever happens.

I rather think you are deranged which is as good a reason to curb gun ownership as any.
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Ligament
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« Reply #86 on: June 14, 2014, 04:16:44 PM »
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I rather think you are deranged which is as good a reason to curb gun ownership as any.

Your ad hominem rebuttal is illustrative. I'll cease posting on this thread given the direction it is moving.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2014, 04:19:29 PM by Ligament » Logged
Justinr
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« Reply #87 on: June 14, 2014, 04:25:39 PM »
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Your ad hominem rebuttal is illustrative.

Not really, it simply illustrates the utter contempt I have for one that who willfully misstates my position, but I have come to expect such desperation of the gun lobby.
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Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #88 on: June 14, 2014, 04:33:05 PM »
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I rather think you are deranged...

And... there goes our (so far) civilized debate😞
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Slobodan

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Justinr
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« Reply #89 on: June 14, 2014, 04:38:59 PM »
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And... there goes our (so far) civilized debate😞

Maybe, but I'm not over fond of being informed that I'm paranoid and so on. How about you?
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john beardsworth
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« Reply #90 on: June 14, 2014, 04:59:59 PM »
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I rather think you are deranged which is as good a reason to curb gun ownership as any.

+1 though easier to get away with saying  his comments are deranged and ridiculous. Rubbing your weapon isn't good for you, "ligament”.
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john beardsworth
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« Reply #91 on: June 14, 2014, 06:33:10 PM »
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That's great. Meanwhile 15000 murders a year and dozens of school shootings. But so long as you had fun....

This was a response to a post that was subsequently deleted.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2014, 03:37:46 AM by john beardsworth » Logged

mjrichardson
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« Reply #92 on: June 15, 2014, 03:09:57 AM »
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This is an interesting discussion, even better if it can stay away from name calling and defensiveness, we all have different opinions.

For what it's worth, I have never understood why people outside the States comment on what's happening inside, Americans are the only people who can affect what happens inside their own country, I have visited many many times and have some great friends over there but honestly, it always feels like a different planet rather than a different country!

That being said, it's a discussion so i will give my unasked for and uninteresting views! I have always felt that gun ownership is more about fear than anything else, fear of attack, fear of nature, fear of the guy walking down the street, it's all fear, I don't see power in any of it.

I also feel that there is so much emphasis placed on rights and not enough on what's right, if that makes sense. Sure it can be your constitutional right to have a gun but do people actually feel it's right to own a gun? It always seems to me like it comes back to fear. It doesn't help that the media always roll out clips of people who are the most extreme they can find, the view from the outside is that everyone is spitting, chewing tobacco, wearing checked shirts and oily baseball caps and proclaiming their god given right to own a bomb if they choose to, that's not the America I know but it is the America that is often portrayed.

I am lucky enough to have travelled more than most and have seen the world from a lot of different angles, in my opinion there are lots of issues that need to be addressed alongside gun control, kids that are stuck behind computers day in and day out, unhealthy from eating poorly, not developing their social skills because they rarely play, etc. etc. all these things are global rather than limited to the US but still, combine this with the apparent American way of promoting and positively reinforcing everyone and everything to the n'th degree is dangerous in my view. If you have been told your whole life that everything you do is awesome and you are fantastic then when you hit your teens and realise that actually you're just as average at most things as everyone else is, it can hit hard as you realise that you've been lied to all your life, surely?

I know my opinion is only valid for me but ultimately, I am sad when I read these stories of pointless killing but then I'm also happy that I'm not part of a culture where I'd be so scared of what was going on around me that i'd feel it necessary to exercise my rights and own a gun for protection, that would be the real tragedy.


Mat



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Justinr
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« Reply #93 on: June 15, 2014, 04:13:12 AM »
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This is an interesting discussion, even better if it can stay away from name calling and defensiveness, we all have different opinions.

For what it's worth, I have never understood why people outside the States comment on what's happening inside, Americans are the only people who can affect what happens inside their own country, I have visited many many times and have some great friends over there but honestly, it always feels like a different planet rather than a different country!

That being said, it's a discussion so i will give my unasked for and uninteresting views! I have always felt that gun ownership is more about fear than anything else, fear of attack, fear of nature, fear of the guy walking down the street, it's all fear, I don't see power in any of it.

I also feel that there is so much emphasis placed on rights and not enough on what's right, if that makes sense. Sure it can be your constitutional right to have a gun but do people actually feel it's right to own a gun? It always seems to me like it comes back to fear. It doesn't help that the media always roll out clips of people who are the most extreme they can find, the view from the outside is that everyone is spitting, chewing tobacco, wearing checked shirts and oily baseball caps and proclaiming their god given right to own a bomb if they choose to, that's not the America I know but it is the America that is often portrayed.

I am lucky enough to have travelled more than most and have seen the world from a lot of different angles, in my opinion there are lots of issues that need to be addressed alongside gun control, kids that are stuck behind computers day in and day out, unhealthy from eating poorly, not developing their social skills because they rarely play, etc. etc. all these things are global rather than limited to the US but still, combine this with the apparent American way of promoting and positively reinforcing everyone and everything to the n'th degree is dangerous in my view. If you have been told your whole life that everything you do is awesome and you are fantastic then when you hit your teens and realise that actually you're just as average at most things as everyone else is, it can hit hard as you realise that you've been lied to all your life, surely?

I know my opinion is only valid for me but ultimately, I am sad when I read these stories of pointless killing but then I'm also happy that I'm not part of a culture where I'd be so scared of what was going on around me that i'd feel it necessary to exercise my rights and own a gun for protection, that would be the real tragedy.


Mat





I think the answer to your first question is because America does have rather a strong influence on the rest of the world be it politically , economically or culturally so in effect we are all 'stakeholders' and so feel entitled to comment upon developments within the country. Certainly the US is not shy of suggesting the the great American dream is the only way forward for civilisation and regular browsing of the web will go to support the contention that there is little regard for other cultures by America as a whole. This may not be intentional and I doubt that the majority of it is, but the English speaking web is to a great extent based on American social mores and it rankles after a while.

Now why people should be scared of one another is an interesting question, the country boasts of its multiculturalism and integration, but just how deep does that tolerance run? I'm not talking just about race here but culture generally. For instance, the Irish are a pretty easy going bunch but even they feel threatened by the Polish and other eastern Europeans, colour doesn't come into it, and I know many British also feel that their country no longer belongs to them hence the success of UKIP (a rather right wing anti immigration party) in the latest elections. Perhaps this fear and the consequent comfort that comes from gun ownership is due to the fact that the content of the melting pot is not quite as homogenous as wished. The development of human nature is probably lagging far behind the rush of globalisation so we need to be aware and make allowances for the fact that we are not all 'one people' and are hardly likely to be be for many generations yet. Certainly I should be be more conscious of the fact that my use of irony in a cynical manner may not be understood as being such by those living elsewhere.
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john beardsworth
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« Reply #94 on: June 15, 2014, 04:26:47 AM »
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For what it's worth, I have never understood why people outside the States comment on what's happening inside, Americans are the only people who can affect what happens inside their own country, I have visited many many times and have some great friends over there but honestly, it always feels like a different planet rather than a different country!

So should we not comment on Israeli treatment of the people who occupied the land they've taken, on the Syrian government's tactics in the civil war there, on the treatment of women in countries like Afghanistan and Pakistan, or should non Brits not comment on how we use sperm to select our head of state? We've probably more first hand experience of the US, and are more exposed to American culture than to what's actually happening in those other societies. In the end a heavy drinker has to decide for himself if he's alcoholic or just a bore, but it doesn't mean you shouldn't tell them they've had enough.
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mjrichardson
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« Reply #95 on: June 15, 2014, 05:00:39 AM »
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Well, that's interesting, of all the points I made in that post, the paragraph I thought the least about was the bit that both of you have picked up on, John, you had nothing to say about any other part of my post.

Just because I don't understand why people post strong views on the social situation in America doesn't mean they shouldn't, just that I don't think it makes any difference to a culture that believe the only way to live is their own way. Suggesting that we shouldn't comment on global injustices is taking my point to the extreme and not really necessary. I guess it's hard to explain your entire viewpoint on everything as a context to what you write on an internet forum. I've spent the last 23 years travelling, working and living in over 80 countries, I have views on most of those places, the common link being they are all based on my view of the world. not anyone elses.

Mat

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john beardsworth
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« Reply #96 on: June 15, 2014, 05:16:33 AM »
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Well, that's interesting, of all the points I made in that post, the paragraph I thought the least about was the bit that both of you have picked up on, John, you had nothing to say about any other part of my post.

That's because "what's it to do with you?" is always wheeled out to invalidate an outsiders right to make any comment or intervene in a dispute. As for the rest of the post, I suppose I just don't disagree much with what you say or feel strongly enough that I would break my preference for keeping (or trying to keep) my own posts short and concise.

John
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Isaac
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« Reply #97 on: June 15, 2014, 09:45:00 AM »
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… I have never understood why people outside the States comment on what's happening inside, Americans are the only people who can affect what happens inside their own country…

Borders are porous, so you can understand why neighbours would comment ("…most crime guns seized in Jamaica over this past decade have also been traced back to the U.S., specifically to the state of Florida…").

Do you think it strange that the USA tries to influence opinions in other countries. Why think it strange that people in other countries try to influence opinions inside the USA?
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mjrichardson
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« Reply #98 on: June 15, 2014, 10:51:07 AM »
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I think it's pointless because this issue isn't about race, religion, gender, it's about the perceived rights of americans, if as a nation there is not enough strength of opinion to change the basis on which everything is built then what possible influence will the outside have? You could have every citizen of every country in the world tell America that their basis for owning guns is wrong and puts innocent lives at risk and what do you think will be the response? It will be that the world is wrong and America is the most powerful nation on earth because of it's rights. There's no group to support, no underdog to fight for, you're arguing against what are seen as basic rights, you can't win. The only change will come from within and it won't be because outsiders think it's wrong.

I honestly don't expect people to agree with my view, that's because it's my view, you're obviously entitled to your own.

Mat
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Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #99 on: June 15, 2014, 03:52:42 PM »
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Outsiders' opinions.

Ok, let's forget about opinions for a moment. let's check some facts. Facts how people form their opinion about things they know little about. And how the less they know, the more they are certain they are right.

Take tha situation in Ukraine, for instance. The attached map shows "where a U.S. survey respondent situated Ukraine; the dots are colored based on how far removed they are from the actual country, with the most accurate responses in red and the least accurate ones in blue.?

You can mock a typical American's knowledge of geography, sure, but that is not the point I am trying to make. That's not the kicker. The real kicker is this:

Quote
The farther their guesses were from Ukraine’s actual location, the more they wanted the U.S. to intervene with military force.

The above is a study by two professors from Harvard and Princeton Universities, published, among others, in a Washington Post article.

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Slobodan

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