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Author Topic: camera raw changed my color space  (Read 16685 times)
stacibeth
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« on: June 11, 2014, 03:13:11 PM »
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So weird!
I shot some landscapes the other day, i set my color space on my canon 1ds mark3 to landscape, downloaded and went to ACR to process, thats when i noticed the color space was set to adobe standard which was very different. I called canon only to find, apparently photoshop cc does not support the canon colorspaces and changes it to their standard.

Upon opening them in DPP (the canon software) yes they come up in the correct color space and the color looks great, but this software softens my images like crazy, even when i sharpen them. Where as ACR produces super sharp images.

So do i A, process in camera raw and have sharp images that the color is off, or what?

has anyone else experienced this?? What do I do? What are my options??
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digitaldog
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« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2014, 03:38:17 PM »
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So weird!
I shot some landscapes the other day, i set my color space on my canon 1ds mark3 to landscape, downloaded and went to ACR to process, thats when i noticed the color space was set to adobe standard which was very different.
Those settings (picture styles like 'landscape') have no bearing on raw data, only a camera JPEG and ACR/LR doesn't use Adobe Standard or any DNG profile expect with raw data.
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So do i A, process in camera raw and have sharp images that the color is off, or what?
You use the controls and tools in ACR to make the image appear as you desire and sharp. If the color is 'off', it means you have some sliders to move so the color isn't 'off' any longer.
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Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2014, 05:40:23 PM »
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All the Canon Picture Styles buy you are a set of presets for someone's idea of what a prepackaged set of adjustments might look best under some circumstances. They aren't any more valid or meaningful than adjustments you might make on your own, to suit your own eye. If you find that you always seem to add a little saturation and contrast boost (just an example), you could set up a preset to do that for all your images automatically as they're imported.

I suppose one thing you could do is shoot something and process it in DPP with a Picture Style you like. Then save that out as a TIFF, and import it to Lightroom. Import the original into LR directly. Then use compare mode to look at both versions simultaneously. Tweak the direct to LR version to match the DPP version as closely as possible, then save those adjustments out as a preset.

With older Canon DSLRs, I always relied on my own profiles using Adobe's free DNG Profile Editor. But I haven't seen any real benefit so far from the custom one I made for my 6D. I suspect the current Adobe profiles for the 1DsIII are probably pretty good too. For really critical color work, I'll reference either a Spyder Cube or a Macbeth Color Checker, or set a custom white balance with a gray card. But as time goes on, I find I only need that when dealing with tungsten or mixed lighting.
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Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2014, 05:51:36 PM »
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...I called canon only to find, apparently photoshop cc does not support the canon colorspaces and changes it to their standard.

Not correct, see the attached screen shot.

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... DPP (the canon software) ... software softens my images like crazy, even when i sharpen them...

Highly unlikely, you must be doing something very wrong.

So, long story short, just select your Canon color profile of choice (e.g., Landscape) in ACR or Lightroom and all is well.
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xpatUSA
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« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2014, 07:27:20 PM »
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I agree something must be wrong. Even with Elements 6 on my computer and no CC I found this:



I assume the OP was referring camera profiles, not color spaces?

cheers,
« Last Edit: July 12, 2014, 07:30:11 PM by xpatUSA » Logged

best regards,

Ted
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« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2014, 03:24:13 AM »
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I assume the OP was referring camera profiles, not color spaces?
Yes, to avoid confusion it should be pointed out to the OP that what she is referring to is what Canon calls "Picture Styles". Color spaces are something quite different and the camera gives you a choice of two, sRGB and Adobe RGB. Both the P.S. and the color space settings are used for jpgs produced by the camera and not Raws. A P.S. is a package of processing parameters which includes a camera profile that determines how colors are rendered in the jpg, contrast, saturation and sharpening. The camera attaches a tag to Raw files which is read by DPP and it applies the same processing package as its default. The tag is not read by ACR, however the user can manually select (in Calibration) a DNG Camera Profile that emulates the relevant Canon profile. The DCPs are for the most part very close to the Canon originals, but given the fact that they are reconstructions it would be wrong to expect them to be 100%. It also should be noted that the other elements in the P.S. package - contrast, saturation and sharpening - are independent ACR parameters that are not affected by the choice of profile and should be set to the user's taste. A color space for the rendered RGB image must also be selected.
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Keith Reeder
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« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2014, 07:39:35 AM »
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Not correct, see the attached screen shot.

Late to this, but...

It is correct. Adobe software makes no use whatsoever of the Canon in-camera profiles, but Adobe has provided some (similarly-named) best-guess emulations of the Canon profiles as a starting point for people who want their Adobe conversions to resemble what the camera produces.
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Keith Reeder
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« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2014, 10:10:00 AM »
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Adobe software makes no use whatsoever of the Canon in-camera profiles, but Adobe has provided some (similarly-named) best-guess emulations of the Canon profiles as a starting point for people who want their Adobe conversions to resemble what the camera produces.
What Canon in-camera profile? Are you referring to a picture style as a profile?
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Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2014, 10:02:14 AM »
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. . . but Adobe has provided some (similarly-named) best-guess emulations of the Canon profiles . . ..

Yes, those are the ones et al that I posted (#4) above:

Ted
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best regards,

Ted
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« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2014, 05:08:35 AM »
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What Canon in-camera profile? Are you referring to a picture style as a profile?
A "Picture Style" contains a camera profile and also default contrast and saturation curves and a measure of sharpening.
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digitaldog
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« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2014, 08:42:15 AM »
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A "Picture Style" contains a camera profile and also default contrast and saturation curves and a measure of sharpening.
I'm aware of that, but those .dcp profiles are from Adobe, certainly those show in xpatUSA's screen capture. Picture Styles accesses from the camera itself are just settings used to convert the raw to a JPEG inside the camera no?
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Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2014, 08:48:21 AM »
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A "Picture Style" contains a camera profile and also default contrast and saturation curves and a measure of sharpening.

Is the Picture Style passed to the converter as a single tag in meta-data or as a full array of parameters necessary for it's application?
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best regards,

Ted
Keith Reeder
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« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2014, 11:45:30 AM »
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Yes, those are the ones et al that I posted (#4) above:

Ted

Yep, but they're not Canon's Picture Styles, Ted - they're Adobe's best guess at something which approximates them.

That's the point I was making, in response to Slobodan challenging the OP's understanding idea that ACR/Lr doesn't use Canon's Styles.

The OP's right. Adobe's software doesn't use them. 
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Keith Reeder
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« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2014, 11:52:12 AM »
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Yep, but they're not Canon's Picture Styles, Ted - they're Adobe's best guess at something which approximates them.

We are talking at cross-purposes: I was responding to your "but Adobe has provided some (similarly-named) best-guess emulations of the Canon profiles", not the Canon stuff, about which I know nothing.

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That's the point I was making, in response to Slobodan challenging the OP's understanding idea that ACR/Lr doesn't use Canon's Styles.

The OP's right. Adobe's software doesn't use them. 

Point taken and was already understood. Thanks anyway . .
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best regards,

Ted
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« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2014, 11:52:27 AM »
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Yep, but they're not Canon's Picture Styles, Ted - they're Adobe's best guess at something which approximates them.
Agreed. It's clear these are Adobe's DNG profiles, the file path shows this to be the case. There are no 'profiles' that I'm aware of that Canon uses internally when someone sets a Picture Style, it's all proprietary processing done inside the camera. These .dcp profiles are not color space definitions, they are DNG profiles Adobe supplies, that attempt to mimic the proprietary processing that the camera itself provides. So they are not Canon's Picture Styles per se, they attempt to mimic the rendering of the raw to JPEG outside the camera, using an Adobe raw processor.
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Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2014, 11:59:51 AM »
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Yep, but they're not Canon's Picture Styles, Ted - they're Adobe's best guess at something which approximates them.

Just so we're all clear here, I have never said or implied that the .dcp files shown in my screen-shot were Canon Picture Styles. At the time of posting I didn't even know what Canon Picture Styles were, having never owned a Canon camera.

Cheers,
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best regards,

Ted
digitaldog
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« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2014, 12:05:38 PM »
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The language that's a tad unclear is: Canon in-camera profiles. AFAIK, there is no such thing. There are picture style settings on the cameras. There are .dcp profiles Adobe builds to attempt to mimic that rendering in their raw converter(s).
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Andrew Rodney
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Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2014, 12:15:09 PM »
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...It is correct...

Depends on what the definition of "is" is  Wink

Whether it is correct or not depends on the context. And the context is the following:

Quote
I shot some landscapes the other day, i set my color space on my canon 1ds mark3 to landscape, downloaded and went to ACR to process, thats when i noticed the color space was set to adobe standard which was very different. I called canon only to find, apparently photoshop cc does not support the canon colorspaces and changes it to their standard.

The context here is that OP doesn't seem to be very versed in the differences between color spaces, camera profiles, Canon styles, etc. The OP's basic problem is thus practical, rather than semantic hairsplitting among experts. She is getting something "very different" from Adobe's standard rendering than what she got using Canon Landscape Styles. Then she got the impression, talking to Canon, that she is stuck with Adobe's standard. That last part is what I said is not correct, simply because she apparently is not aware that she can select Adobe's Landscape Style from the menu. Which is what xpatUSA and I pointed out.

Again, remember, the essence of the context is in the words "very different." Had she tried Adobe's Landscape and THEN claimed that the result is still "very different," I would be wrong. Whether something is identical or merely resembles it, is only critical (for practical purposes) if the resembling is way off. And, in this case, it isn't.
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Slobodan

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« Reply #18 on: August 18, 2014, 03:36:59 PM »
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Depends on what the definition of "is" is  Wink

I love that quote, use it a lot myself!

Cheers,
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best regards,

Ted
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« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2014, 10:33:22 AM »
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Hi,

I think the part that may be misleading/misunderstood in the OP is the title, which describes "color space".  As Andrew and others have pointed out, the Canon Picture Styles are basically renderings (ways to reproduce color and tone), as opposed to color spaces.  As many here have realized, since many Canon users are fond of these renderings, Adobe has tried to simulate these via the profiles that are available in the Profile popup menu, with the "Camera" prefix (such as "Camera Standard").  Regardless, these are not color spaces.

The only places to choose color spaces inside ACR are (1) the Workflow Options dialog, which controls the color space of the document when opening the image into Photoshop (via the "Open" button) and the (2) the Save dialog, which controls the color space of the document when saving the image directly to disk (such as to a JPEG or TIFF file).

Eric
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