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Author Topic: Leica S lens price increase  (Read 4045 times)
Chris Livsey
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« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2014, 01:41:55 AM »
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The problem with being a fan of a company is that they don't necessarily reciprocate your affection.

It seems to me that for a number of "leaders of opinion", "bloggers we love" they do reciprocate affection shown, its just the rest of us picking up the tab that feel the pain.
That pain though is mitigated when I see my venerable M8 bought in 2007 for £2500, new, still brings almost half that S/H whereas the H3DII 22 listed at £14,687.50 in 2008 can be picked up for around £2,000 now. (Actually I've seen a II version for that price with 9,000 clicks) What happened to "protecting the investment" ?

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bcooter
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« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2014, 04:27:39 AM »
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For commerce, you buy cameras for use, not for perceived resale value.  

Nothing today sells for what it's original price was, but I'm not a camera trader, I'm a user.

These forums bring out the fan boys (For some reason, usually Nikon owners) that questions everyone's sanity in buying a higher end piece of equipment, but rarely talk about the photographs they produce.

For me, the S2 fit the bill.  In controlled conditions it doesn't shoot  a better file than my ancient p30+ and Contax, in real world, pressued production it's twice the camera of my Contax due to it's form factor.

It allows me to use a "film"  I like, a ccd based camera in a style that is actually smaller than my 1dx, while allowing my contax lenses go come out of the case and work as intended.

No other company does that, so I'm pleased and if the body dropped to 1/10th the price, it would make no difference to me.

I feel the same about my RED1s.   They continue to make us money, allow us to shoot as well or better than any equipment currently made and the resale value isn't important.

The only cameras that bug me are the tweeners, like the Sony FS100.  That cost something like 4 grand, was marginal at the time and today will sell for about a grand if I'm lucky.

Still, this forum goes crazy if anyone buys anything they perceive to be excessive, but I can promise you, in the long term my S2 will work at as one of the least expensive cameras I own.

Plus there is always the intangible factor of I like it.

But if it's just megapixels and price ratios that turn you on, the new Pentax isn't the deal, a Nikon D800 is, because by allow accounts everyone says the files look virtually identical.  (I've used neither so that is just what I'm told).

Personally, the only still camera equipment I'd buy today is an Aptus 22 for my Contax, because it produced a unique look I've yet to be able to duplicate with my other cameras.  I wonder what that sells for today?

Regardless of price, an Aptus 22 with the right lens and setting is still viable.




IMO

BC
« Last Edit: June 13, 2014, 04:49:21 AM by bcooter » Logged

eronald
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« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2014, 05:24:44 AM »
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Leica have a long history of building cameras used by pros and amateurs, but they seem to have fairly recently learnt luxury marketing from their erstwhile part-owner Hermés.

And so they have their own stores, color schemes, bespoke furniture, parties, camera donations to the rich and famous, superblogger fans with special access, collector editions. Everyone who is known to use a Leica is a VIP except for the "real" buyers who buy from a "real" dealer with "real" money.

Think of your favorite fashion brand - they too hold parties to launch products, host charity events, their products are  visibly displayed by those whose business it is to be famous. It has little to do with what the product does. It's a smart marketing technique aimed at those who want to belong.

Oh and by the way, luxury products can never be purchased by Joe Buyer at launch, there are waiting lists, and  THE MEDIAN PRICE GOES UP EVERY YEAR. The brand must appear to be more exclusive every year.

I'm so sorry for any of you who actually paid for "put your luxury name here". If you paid it means you're not really rich and famous.

Edmund

 
It seems to me that for a number of "leaders of opinion", "bloggers we love" they do reciprocate affection shown, its just the rest of us picking up the tab that feel the pain.
That pain though is mitigated when I see my venerable M8 bought in 2007 for £2500, new, still brings almost half that S/H whereas the H3DII 22 listed at £14,687.50 in 2008 can be picked up for around £2,000 now. (Actually I've seen a II version for that price with 9,000 clicks) What happened to "protecting the investment" ?


« Last Edit: June 13, 2014, 05:46:12 AM by eronald » Logged
Ken R
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« Reply #23 on: June 13, 2014, 08:05:49 AM »
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Just like nobody likes more taxes, no photographer likes price increases on their favorite gear. It just plain suxs.

It's a good thing that Leica is not the only manufacturer of camera gear then. It's great to have choices and now we photographers have more than ever in the history of digital photography.

Regarding Leica's business practices / model one could go on forever discussing those. I don't think anyone will argue that New Leica gear are high value items. None are. But, a lot of the Leica gear do offer something different. I mean, it's not like they are selling a Sony A99 covered in different materials at an astronomical price.  Tongue
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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2014, 08:20:00 AM »
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I'll just say that lenses from nearly every manufacturer go up almost every year, at least for a while. If you check a Canon lens from 3 years ago, it's gone up 10% - 20% in general. It's always been the case, at least in recent times.


Steve Hendrix
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BobDavid
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« Reply #25 on: June 13, 2014, 08:24:44 AM »
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My best work to date is coming out of an EM1, an EPL-5, and a set of Oly fast primes. I love the look of the files and it's great to shoot without bulky gear and to be able to handhold a camera, take a shot at 1/3 sec with a 25mm, 17mm, 12mm (50, 34, 24 35FF equiv lenses) without worrying about camera shake. I've been making tasty 15 X 20 and 18 X 24 prints with the Oly files. I like the look of the higher ISO noise and anything shot below ISO 800 looks pretty damn smooth. I've been around the block with everything from an 8" X 10" view camera to a CF39-MS/H2f kit to a Nikon d800. The Nikon is nice, and I will continue using it. But the Oly inspires me to shoot everyday--whether for fun or for commerce. Granted, I've lost interest in wanting to see every blade of grass or every leaf on a tree. And I am no longer taking in commercial projects where the final image is plastered onto billboards. As for the sheer joy of taking pictures and making art prints, I am having more fun with the Olys than I've ever had with any camera. The files are robust, the lenses are well-corrected--exhibiting fine micro contrast. They paint pretty bokeh. The fact they are light and relatively inexpensive is a big bonus. I know comparing an Oly to a Leica S is sort of silly, but if you are not wealthy or not producing fussy commercial work, consider going to a smaller format rather than a larger one.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2014, 08:27:25 AM by BobDavid » Logged
BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #26 on: June 13, 2014, 08:33:44 AM »
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These forums bring out the fan boys (For some reason, usually Nikon owners) that questions everyone's sanity in buying a higher end piece of equipment, but rarely talk about the photographs they produce.

Those saying here that Leica S prices are out of line are probably only claiming that in the context of their own needs, aren't they? At least that is the case for me.

I am not sure how that can be understood to mean that those buying Leica equipment may not have excellent reasons to do that in the context of their own needs?

As a side comment, I don't mind being called a Nikon fanboy (although there is a lot I am not happy about regarding Nikon's current state of affairs), but I don't think it is fair to write that I don't publish work Wink : https://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardlanguillier/sets/72157608924579177/

I won't bore you with 300 megapixel stitches... but, playing in your territory, I honnestly prefer the following images a thousand times over anything you have ever shown here... but I guess that the model being my daughter may have something to do with this. And yes, make up was done with a mix of rice and home made stew. Tongue





The linked images were captured with amazing equipment from Nikon, Sony, Leica (2 of their best lenses ever, the 180mm f2.8 R APO and 280mm f4 R APO), Zeiss, Sigma, Canon, Mamiya, Ebony, Hasselblad,... you can call me a fanboy of these brands also.

It could clearly be better, but considering the amount of time I have left for photography these days, I think that the 6 feet prints are ok. Wink

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: June 13, 2014, 08:55:13 AM by BernardLanguillier » Logged

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Chris Livsey
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« Reply #27 on: June 13, 2014, 09:58:10 AM »
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For commerce, you buy cameras for use, not for perceived resale value.  

Nothing today sells for what it's original price was, but I'm not a camera trader, I'm a user.

Plus there is always the intangible factor of I like it.

BC

Not nitpicking at all BTW.
Ah you see not coming from commerce I can't claim back the sales tax on initial outlay (currently 20% in UK) nor can I write down the capital annually against profit. That does rather bias the outlook I agree. I'm not buying work tools I'm buying 'toys".

On the second point quoted, I'm afraid there are lots of cameras that sell for far more than the original price, Leica especially and not just the pure collectors editions or the black paint series  Grin

Absolutely agree on the intangible factor, what works or inspires you becomes cost effective.
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Chris Livsey
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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #28 on: June 13, 2014, 10:27:00 AM »
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Not nitpicking at all BTW.
Ah you see not coming from commerce I can't claim back the sales tax on initial outlay (currently 20% in UK) nor can I write down the capital annually against profit. That does rather bias the outlook I agree. I'm not buying work tools I'm buying 'toys".

On the second point quoted, I'm afraid there are lots of cameras that sell for far more than the original price, Leica especially and not just the pure collectors editions or the black paint series  Grin

Absolutely agree on the intangible factor, what works or inspires you becomes cost effective.


Not digital cameras.


Steve Hendrix
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Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #29 on: June 13, 2014, 10:51:18 AM »
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... I am not sure how that can be understood to mean that those buying Leica equipment may not have excellent reasons to do that in the context of their own needs?...

Maybe because someone said this Wink

Quote
The most puzzling one is indeed the 30-90mm f3.5-5.6 at the same price as the latest 400mm f2.8 from Nikon/Canon... I am hesitating between sad and hilarious.

By the way, there are photographers who would pay $4-$5K for a standard (read: boring) lens that is vastly more expensive within its ecosystem than Leica lenses are within their own. Wink

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Slobodan

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Chris Livsey
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« Reply #30 on: June 13, 2014, 11:21:10 AM »
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Not digital cameras.


Steve Hendrix
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 Grin Grin
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Chris Livsey
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Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #31 on: June 13, 2014, 01:55:13 PM »
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I am saying that they can produce the same level of sharpness on a 24x36" (61cm x 91cm or A1) print... the print is not that big.

Perhaps, but I was not referring just to the print-offer size. That print typically prints at 40"x60" and sells for $17,500. The photographer obviously doesn't mind spending a small fortune on Leica body and lenses, when he can sell its prints for small fortunes as well. His largest-ever print is a full 2x3 yards (about 1.83x2.75 meters). In his own words: ""When you print large, you need and can justify very high resolution—and camera investments."

No doubt some other MF cameras and lenses could produce similar results. I was more reacting to comparisons with DSLR and even point & shoots someone mentioned in this thread.
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jerome_m
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« Reply #32 on: June 13, 2014, 02:59:50 PM »
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Perhaps, but I was not referring just to the print-offer size. That print typically prints at 40"x60"

I would believe that at size, the main problem with the S is not the lens but the lack of pixels. The Leica S is only 37 mpix and the 4x3 aspect ratio of the print further lowers the pixel count. My math says the final print is only 125 ppi.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2014, 03:29:08 PM by jerome_m » Logged
BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #33 on: June 13, 2014, 03:34:08 PM »
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In his own words: ""When you print large, you need and can justify very high resolution—and camera investments."

I'll have to say this again, but I have made large prints from stitches done with a Nikon V2 that are better than anything I could ever get from Imacon scanned 4x5.

So for most landscape work, I agree that you need very high resolution, but I don't believe that spending Leica S kind of money is the only solution, or even the better one. Now, it may help this gentlemen market his work towards certain categories of buyers, but this is something different.

There are other applications where the Leaf lenses available in S format change the story completely.

Cheers,
Bernard
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Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #34 on: June 13, 2014, 04:25:55 PM »
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... the 4x3 aspect ratio of the print...

What 4x3 aspect ratio? 40x60?
« Last Edit: June 13, 2014, 04:28:05 PM by Slobodan Blagojevic » Logged

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satybhat
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« Reply #35 on: June 13, 2014, 10:45:55 PM »
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BCooter, what an amazing portrait that is.
Would you mind sharing the PP ?
Did you use the soft focus filter ?

Thanks
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Chris Livsey
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« Reply #36 on: June 14, 2014, 01:10:01 AM »
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BCooter, what an amazing portrait that is.
Would you mind sharing the PP ?
Did you use the soft focus filter ?

Thanks

Interesting, consistently I only see the top 1/4 the rest is grey. In MacBookPro/Safari, all other shots fine.

Working now 14/6

« Last Edit: June 14, 2014, 10:10:32 AM by Chris Livsey » Logged

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Chris Livsey
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jerome_m
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« Reply #37 on: June 14, 2014, 01:56:51 AM »
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What 4x3 aspect ratio? 40x60?

Yes, a 40" x 60" print has a 4x3 (or 3x4) aspect ratio, so the file from the Leica needs to be cropped left and right. Most MF cameras have a 4x3 sensor ratio and would not need that crop (but need more crop if one wants to shoot a panorama, for example).

Edit: what was I thinking when I wrote that? Of course, 40" x 60" is a 2x3 aspect ratio, just like the Leica S...
« Last Edit: June 14, 2014, 03:11:08 AM by jerome_m » Logged
eronald
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« Reply #38 on: June 14, 2014, 02:27:24 AM »
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Maybe lens prices are creeping up because with mirrorless cameras will soon just be boxes with no moving parts, all AF mechanisms, aperture and maybe central shutter in the lens?

If every MF cam is just a box with a Sony sensor, a screen on the back, and a shutter button, differentiation is going to be hard to achieve...

The camera will in effect become a "brand dongle" attached to the lens, exactly like the overexpensive branded batteries which have proprietary contacts so you have to use them on your device.

Edmund
« Last Edit: June 14, 2014, 02:29:51 AM by eronald » Logged
gerald.d
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« Reply #39 on: June 14, 2014, 03:03:38 AM »
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Yes, a 40" x 60" print has a 4x3 (or 3x4) aspect ratio, so the file from the Leica needs to be cropped left and right. Most MF cameras have a 4x3 sensor ratio and would not need that crop (but need more crop if one wants to shoot a panorama, for example).

Err, no it doesn't. It has a 2x3 ratio.
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