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Author Topic: Leica S lens price increase  (Read 4212 times)
jerome_m
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« Reply #40 on: June 14, 2014, 03:08:25 AM »
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I'll have to say this again, but I have made large prints from stitches done with a Nikon V2 that are better than anything I could ever get from Imacon scanned 4x5.

So for most landscape work, I agree that you need very high resolution, but I don't believe that spending Leica S kind of money is the only solution, or even the better one.

Exactly. MF users arguing over the superiority of their system on the basis of how many millions pixels it can produce is so much 2005, when the resolution race has been won by automated pano heads and stitching software capable of producing prints of several billions pixels.


There are other applications where the Leaf lenses available in S format change the story completely.

There are still plenty of applications where MF cameras are the better tool indeed. There are still plenty of applications where large, complicated and therefore expensive lenses are the only choice. I am not arguing with that.

Leaf shutters are a different story, since they are available on cameras which may surprise you. My Sony RX-1 has one for example (and it goes up to 1/4000s).
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gerald.d
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« Reply #41 on: June 14, 2014, 03:18:37 AM »
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Exactly. MF users arguing over the superiority of their system on the basis of how many millions pixels it can produce is so much 2005, when the resolution race has been won by automated pano heads and stitching software capable of producing prints of several billions pixels.

Here's the thing though.

Yes, you can generate billions of pixels by slapping a smaller format camera on a pano head and stitching. But you can of course also put MF cameras on pano heads too.

And you then have the distinct advantage that because of the wider field of view that you get from the same focal length lens, you need to shoot fewer images with the MF sensor than you do with a DSLR. Fewer images to stitch, shoot faster, less ghosting to deal with.
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eronald
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« Reply #42 on: June 14, 2014, 03:22:48 AM »
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Here's the thing though.

Yes, you can generate billions of pixels by slapping a smaller format camera on a pano head and stitching. But you can of course also put MF cameras on pano heads too.

And you then have the distinct advantage that because of the wider field of view that you get from the same focal length lens, you need to shoot fewer images with the MF sensor than you do with a DSLR. Fewer images to stitch, shoot faster, less ghosting to deal with.



Except that your camera is much larger, heavier, and so you need a bigger "professional" pano motorized system that costs more money and moves much more slowly.

I think the Sigma compacts are probably the sweet spot for panos - you can use them with the cheapest motorized heads and the image quality ion a tripod is exemplary.

Ah, it's such hard work to become a pixel billionaire ...
Edmund
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gerald.d
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« Reply #43 on: June 14, 2014, 03:29:27 AM »
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Except that your camera is much larger, heavier, and so you need a bigger pano system that costs more money and moves much more slowly.

I think the Sigma compacts are probably the sweet spot for panos - you can use them with the cheapest motorized heads and the image quality ion a tripod s exemplary.

Edmund
The weight of the gear on a decent pano head makes no difference whatsoever to the speed at which you can shoot. And there really is no such thing as a "sweet spot" for panos. Depending on the specifics of the requirement, you'd want to have differing kit to utilise.

You need to take into account the context of the discussion - "the resolution race has been won by automated pano heads and stitching software capable of producing prints of several billions pixels". If you're up in the gigapixel range, you really do not want to be doing it with a Sigma compact.

Kind regards,

Gerald.
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eronald
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« Reply #44 on: June 14, 2014, 03:41:42 AM »
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The weight of the gear on a decent pano head makes no difference whatsoever to the speed at which you can shoot. And there really is no such thing as a "sweet spot" for panos. Depending on the specifics of the requirement, you'd want to have differing kit to utilise.

You need to take into account the context of the discussion - "the resolution race has been won by automated pano heads and stitching software capable of producing prints of several billions pixels". If you're up in the gigapixel range, you really do not want to be doing it with a Sigma compact.

Kind regards,

Gerald.

Maybe you can tell us which of the motorized pano systems can cope with an MF camera and a short tele?

Obviously the cheap Epic systems won't cut it, although they'd do ok with a small cam.

There is a list of heads available, but I think most motorized units won't cope with an MF system.

Edmund
« Last Edit: June 14, 2014, 03:47:16 AM by eronald » Logged
gerald.d
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« Reply #45 on: June 14, 2014, 03:57:52 AM »
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Maybe you can tell us which of the motorized pano systems can cope with an MF camera and a short tele?

Obviously the cheap Epic systems won't cut it, although they'd do ok with a small cam.

There is a list of heads available, but I think most motorized units won't cope with an MF system.

Edmund

I use the Seitz VR Drive 2.

I've shot 1Dx and Canon 400mm f/2.8 on it with no problems whatsoever - that's probably the heaviest kit (of any sort) I've used on it for a serious piece of work. I also did a test with the 800/5.6, and it seemed just fine, but I've not actually produced anything with that yet. It was tempting to try the 1200/5.6 on it, but that might be pushing things a little far...

On the MF side of things, probably the heaviest I've used it with would be the Phase AF/IQ180 and Mamiya 300/2.8. It didn't even break into a sweat.

Kind regards,

Gerald.
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eronald
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« Reply #46 on: June 14, 2014, 04:51:18 AM »
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We're certainly out of the toy range here with the Seitz - most SLRs would register as an accessory for the head Smiley

I just bought a toy $25 clockwork driven pano head for my iPhone. At that price it even came with a pocket tripod. It's unusable handheld, but just before throwing it away I met a bunch of japanese, and they showed me that it makes group selfies during get-togethers: place it on a table and it rotates and shoots everyone around the table.

The group selfie is a new social art form - 21st century version of the old self-timer group photograph. I'd expect we'll see new equipment to do it better, as there is a definite expectation that these images be taken, just as people now expect to take selfies on social occasions, and every phone now has a supplementary camera tailored for that use.

Edmund

I use the Seitz VR Drive 2.

I've shot 1Dx and Canon 400mm f/2.8 on it with no problems whatsoever - that's probably the heaviest kit (of any sort) I've used on it for a serious piece of work. I also did a test with the 800/5.6, and it seemed just fine, but I've not actually produced anything with that yet. It was tempting to try the 1200/5.6 on it, but that might be pushing things a little far...

On the MF side of things, probably the heaviest I've used it with would be the Phase AF/IQ180 and Mamiya 300/2.8. It didn't even break into a sweat.

Kind regards,

Gerald.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2014, 05:01:48 AM by eronald » Logged
pedro39photo
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« Reply #47 on: June 14, 2014, 06:15:04 AM »
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with those price ranges this brands are not for real photo professionals, are for rich people with big pockets and love for photography.
The hasselblad and the leica in some segments are transforming photo tools into photo jewel tools...
I understand this, there are more and more rich people from Asia countries with to much money to spent...

Lets pimp the tripods, the bags, the flashs with some rare hoods and crystals and ask 2000$.

Its mad times... 
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KLaban
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« Reply #48 on: June 14, 2014, 07:06:52 AM »
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with those price ranges this brands are not for real photo professionals, are for rich people with big pockets and love for photography.

"Profissional Photo and Imaging Services -Portugal Editorial | Industrial | Corporate and Stock are my main fields. Contact: pedro39photo@hotmail.com"

You'd be better served correcting your own description to reflect your own status rather than concerning yourself with that of others.
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MrSmith
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« Reply #49 on: June 14, 2014, 07:11:55 AM »
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"The group selfie is a new social art form"
Hardly surprising now we live in the age of narcissism where the sense of self worth and documenting every ephemeral moment has been elevated to an everyday necessity.
Even better if you can do it with a bejewelled bauble hung round your neck.
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eronald
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« Reply #50 on: June 14, 2014, 07:27:42 AM »
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"The group selfie is a new social art form"
Hardly surprising now we live in the age of narcissism where the sense of self worth and documenting every ephemeral moment has been elevated to an everyday necessity.
Even better if you can do it with a bejewelled bauble hung round your neck.

Yes. Leica got it perfectly, the Vario T is purpose-built to be seen.

However there has always been a ceremonial function to photography; it is perfectly fulfilled by the marriage photographer, or the political press-camera click-circus.

What I find interesting is that companies etc are not hiring photographers any more to make a group photo of the employees at work etc - there is a depreciation of social belonging accompanying the narcissism of the everyday.

Edmund
« Last Edit: June 14, 2014, 07:30:23 AM by eronald » Logged
JV
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« Reply #51 on: June 14, 2014, 09:28:39 AM »
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Maybe lens prices are creeping up because with mirrorless cameras will soon just be boxes with no moving parts, all AF mechanisms, aperture and maybe central shutter in the lens?

If every MF cam is just a box with a Sony sensor, a screen on the back, and a shutter button, differentiation is going to be hard to achieve...

The camera will in effect become a "brand dongle" attached to the lens, exactly like the overexpensive branded batteries which have proprietary contacts so you have to use them on your device.

Edmund

That is what I am wondering as well.

People will always be willing to pay for a good body but I don't believe that the current ridiculous prices are maintainable long term for CMOS sensors.

Joris.
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eronald
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« Reply #52 on: June 14, 2014, 09:36:04 AM »
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That is what I am wondering as well.

People will always be willing to pay for a good body but I don't believe that the current ridiculous prices are maintainable long term for CMOS sensors.

Joris.

or CCD.

Wink

Edmund
« Last Edit: June 14, 2014, 09:37:50 AM by eronald » Logged
Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #53 on: June 14, 2014, 10:34:55 AM »
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... What I find interesting is that companies etc are not hiring photographers any more to make a group photo of the employees at work etc - there is a depreciation of social belonging...

Not just that... it is simply too much work. Companies would have to have a full-time retoucher on staff to "refresh" group photos every month so, after the latest round of purges, a.k.a. downsizing, rightsizing, outsourcing, etc. Stalin did (both having a full-time retoucher, and purges - after several sessions of the central committee, group photos started to look more like a Swiss cheese)  Wink
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Slobodan

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wildlightphoto
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« Reply #54 on: June 14, 2014, 12:25:01 PM »
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Yes. Leica got it perfectly, the Vario T is purpose-built to be seen.

Unlike the straps supplied by CaNikon that are made only to hold the camera.
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eronald
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« Reply #55 on: June 14, 2014, 01:26:34 PM »
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I think Leica wins at the don't look at me I'm only taking a picture game.

Edmund



Unlike the straps supplied by CaNikon that are made only to hold the camera.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2014, 01:30:36 PM by eronald » Logged
Telecaster
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« Reply #56 on: June 14, 2014, 01:44:17 PM »
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What I find interesting is that companies etc are not hiring photographers any more to make a group photo of the employees at work etc - there is a depreciation of social belonging accompanying the narcissism of the everyday.

At one of the startups I was involved with I served as the unofficial photographer. I always had a camera with me at work, and every couple months or so I'd spend a whole day taking portraits, candids, group meeting shots, etc. During the greatest growth period I'd take formal portraits of the more recent folks with a 100/2 and ultra-close shots of everyone else with a fisheye. Getting "fisheyed" was a rite of passage...you'd stuck around long enough to be caricatured.   Wink

-Dave-
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wildlightphoto
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« Reply #57 on: June 14, 2014, 05:50:09 PM »
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I think Leica wins at the don't look at me I'm only taking a picture game.

Edmund




They all play that game.  Red Hasselblads, Nikons styled by Giugiaro, big white lenses, 'woodie' sigmas… I'm sure the list doesn't end there.
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heinrichvoelkel
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« Reply #58 on: June 14, 2014, 06:26:57 PM »
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Not just that... it is simply too much work. Companies would have to have a full-time retoucher on staff to "refresh" group photos every month so, after the latest round of purges, a.k.a. downsizing, rightsizing, outsourcing, etc. Stalin did (both having a full-time retoucher, and purges - after several sessions of the central committee, group photos started to look more like a Swiss cheese)  Wink

Slobodan…  golden times!!!!
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bcooter
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« Reply #59 on: June 14, 2014, 10:04:34 PM »
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Man, if Leica gave away bars of gold, this forum would complain about how their polished.

Why the negativity?

I think most people are missing the first rule of commerce which is to turn a profit.

Ask any seller of goods or services what they charge and this answer might not come out of their mouth, but the thought is  . . . as much as I can.

That's not greed, that's capitalism and in todays decreasing margins, survival.

Ask the second question of who you sell to and the  response is anyone willing to legally pay.

I have an affinity for Leica.  I dig Leica because they are primarily a camera company.

Leica and Arriflex are two of the last venerable camera brands that still survive in todays world of imaging conglomerates.

So many cameras have gone or have lost their camera dna while becoming absorbed into large companies or spreading out into other industries.  They're too long to list.

What I don't get about all of this discussion is when did it become a sin to actually enjoy something you want, purposeful or not?

I bought my wife a small Leica with a fixed lens.   It's basically a panasonic with a Leica feel and she loves it.   I could have saved by buying it's panasonic brother, but she loves her leica and that's all that matters.

I might buy her a T because I think the modern interface it's where cameras will be going and it's the right size and format for what she enjoys photographing.

I know when I put the S2  or M series in my hand it makes me smile and has a tactile feel that is the best of non human touch I can get.

Regardless of all of this the cameras I buy are for commerce and my S2 is not overpriced.   Actually in most of our productions we spend more on drives than I did for the S2, which to me is a shocking perspective, because there is nothing fun or sexy about hard drives.

But all this talk about 360 pano selfies has nothing to do with me and though it probably exists I don't know of many professionals that make their living off of selfies, so I take that stuff with a tiny grain of thought, though for personal fun, I can see their advantages, just not in my world.

Leica m8


IMO

BC

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