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Author Topic: Aperture RIP  (Read 18689 times)
ButchM
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« Reply #60 on: July 02, 2014, 10:06:35 AM »
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That is not what I said. I wish people wouldn't misconstrue posts.


That appears to be a two-way street.

I will rejoice in your obvious superior intellect and wisdom from afar.
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jjj
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« Reply #61 on: July 02, 2014, 12:31:19 PM »
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That appears to be a two-way street.
Not really as I prefer to take care to read posts carefully before replying.

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I will rejoice in your obvious superior intellect and wisdom from afar.
So you resort being rude and patronising as apparently you have nothing better to say.
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ButchM
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« Reply #62 on: July 02, 2014, 01:33:26 PM »
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Not really as I prefer to take care to read posts carefully before replying.
So you resort being rude and patronising as apparently you have nothing better to say.

What I shared is only truly "rude or patronizing" if you believe it to be true.

It matters little what I, or apparently anyone else offers on this subject, as you will insist you are the one and only arbiter of what is true and correct.

I'll just defer to your better judgement on the matter.
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mj-perini
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« Reply #63 on: July 02, 2014, 08:52:26 PM »
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Regarding why Apple made the statement NOW, and via the back door (selective PR Calls)
I'm sure they did get questions about how Photos 'Fits' with Aperture, but my guess is that they learned a bit from the Final Cut Pro X debacle
The situation was somewhat similar -both Aperture and FCP had become Apps with loyal following in much need of an update.
When the much anticipated FCPx was delivered with no way to import current or legacy work, no multi-cam tec. it caused a huge uproar which caused Apple to reissue/update FCP7 (?) while they worked out the bugs in FCPx.
Luckily for the FCP users a lot of the uproar came from hollywood and Apple" helped out."
With most Aperture users expecting Aperture 4 or Aperture x, it could have resulted in a similar blow up.
By announcing it through the back door, a year early, they are betting we will squeal for a while and get over it.
Sadly they are probably right.

None of us have the right to expect a product to last forever, BUT, after years and 3 1/2 major versions, I do think we have the right to expect it to be updated until they can offer a  true useable professional  replacement.
Professional Applications are called that because many customers use them for business, from which they make a living. Apple seems to feel no concern about disrupting those businesses.  They do it under the guise of technical progress. Technical progress is very important and we have all been beneficiaries of Apple's efforts.  But technical progress, and making a genuine effort not to disrupt loyal customer's businesses are not mutually exclusive. 
They can still fulfill their vision without disrupting our business.  All they have to do is wait until the new application, or technology offers a true replacement of function before they kill the old product.
That would be a little less convenient for Apple, and sadly their obvious stance is that if there is Any inconvenience, it should be pushed onto customers.
They could and should do better.
Michael
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BobShaw
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« Reply #64 on: July 02, 2014, 09:00:51 PM »
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the more expensive a product is the less likely people are to admit there is an issue with their purchase and I'd guess you would be one of them. This is why Macolytes defending Apple products are so numerous compared to PC users who don't mind admitting their drawbacks of their usually much cheaper purchases
Fair dinkum (as we say in Oz), that is the funniest thing I heard in a long while. Which text book on marketing did that one from?
« Last Edit: July 02, 2014, 09:02:28 PM by BobShaw » Logged

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jjj
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« Reply #65 on: July 03, 2014, 04:01:40 AM »
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Fair dinkum (as we say in Oz), that is the funniest thing I heard in a long while. Which text book on marketing did that one from?
That's not marketing, it is psychology. It's a specific kind of Choice Supportive Bias, amusingly it is sometimes referred to Buyer's Stockholm Syndrome. Not surprisingly on the wiki entry on this aspect of cognitive science, Apple is used as the prime example.
"For example, if a person buys a computer from Apple instead of a computer (PC) running Windows, he is likely to ignore or downplay the faults of Apple computers while amplifying those of Windows computers. Conversely, he is also likely to notice and amplify advantages of Apple computers and not notice or de-emphasize those of Windows computers."

There's also the Veblen Effect where increasing the price of luxury goods makes them more desirable. Tied into this is the fact that the more people pay for something the more they enjoy it and basically you've explained the annoying behaviour of Macolytes.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2014, 04:05:58 AM by jjj » Logged

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john beardsworth
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« Reply #66 on: July 03, 2014, 04:06:41 AM »
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Slam dunk?
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jjj
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« Reply #67 on: July 03, 2014, 04:19:26 AM »
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What I shared is only truly "rude or patronizing" if you believe it to be true.
So if say I were to call you a badly dressed muppet who smells of rotting fish, it's only an insult if you believe it to be true. Interesting er...'logic'.

Quote
It matters little what I, or apparently anyone else offers on this subject, as you will insist you are the one and only arbiter of what is true and correct.

I'll just defer to your better judgement on the matter.
And all because I dare to offer a less fawning view of how wonderful Apple is, which contradicts how too many Apple users think.
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ButchM
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« Reply #68 on: July 03, 2014, 07:56:21 AM »
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So if say I were to call you a badly dressed muppet who smells of rotting fish, it's only an insult if you believe it to be true. Interesting er...'logic'.
And all because I dare to offer a less fawning view of how wonderful Apple is, which contradicts how too many Apple users think.


You are the ultimate master of all knowledge ... we are just mere mortals in your presence.
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Robert Roaldi
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« Reply #69 on: July 03, 2014, 09:21:30 AM »
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None of us have the right to expect a product to last forever, BUT, after years and 3 1/2 major versions, I do think we have the right to expect it to be updated until they can offer a  true useable professional  replacement.
Professional Applications are called that because many customers use them for business, from which they make a living. Apple seems to feel no concern about disrupting those businesses.  They do it under the guise of technical progress. Technical progress is very important and we have all been beneficiaries of Apple's efforts.  But technical progress, and making a genuine effort not to disrupt loyal customer's businesses are not mutually exclusive. 
They can still fulfill their vision without disrupting our business.  All they have to do is wait until the new application, or technology offers a true replacement of function before they kill the old product.
That would be a little less convenient for Apple, and sadly their obvious stance is that if there is Any inconvenience, it should be pushed onto customers.
They could and should do better.
Michael

Well put. The long-term effect of behaving like that is that your customers won't trust you in the future. But maybe they don't care, and why should they? There seem to be lots of people who are more than willing to go along with whatever the vendors want. I know people who upgrade their cell/smart phones for reasons of what is basically fashion. I guess there's no reason for them to care about people who don't want to continuously spend money. That treadmill seems to generate lots of income.

It's too bad that the camera manufacturer software isn't better than it is, because if it was, people could use it to translate their RAW into NDG, and then use whatever photo tools they liked most. Maybe a lot of people are doing exactly that, I don't know. I wasn't paying attention, I guess, and got caught by their stopping of RAW support in Lion.
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Misirlou
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« Reply #70 on: July 03, 2014, 11:09:06 AM »
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Hasn't it been pretty clear for a long time that Apple has been purposely transforming itself from a maker of niche education and arts business tools into a generic consumer tech company? Heck, I use Apple products every day, but I hold no illusion that they are tightly tied to the graphics art world anymore.
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Hywel
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« Reply #71 on: July 03, 2014, 01:03:23 PM »
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I also think Apple have done this as they HAVE learned from the FCP-X launch debacle.

A debacle from which the actual product comes up smelling of roses in the end. Going back to FCP6 from FCP-X feels like a twenty year regression, because it is.

This IS the way Apple does things. When they decide something has reached the end of its usefulness, they cut it loose. I remember the howls of outrage when a Mac first came out without a floppy drive, and again when one came out without DVD drive, or Firewire, and when the iPhone changed its power connector for a physically smaller unit that was no longer the limiting factor on the dimensions of the device itself. (iWatch with old style connector? No way).

It doesn't make for a smooth ride as a professional using their kit day in day out to do work. Sometimes they throw away very good functionality and drastically dumb down (eg recent iWork revamp) leaving them temporarily with a significantly inferior offering. 

But it DOES mean that they can cut loose from all the accumulated cruft of legacy developments and decade-old design decisions whose usefulness have been surpassed.

My observation is that after a bit of grumbling and moaning, the new stuff offers enough good points to be worth a try.

And can turn out to do the limited subset of stuff it does much more efficiently than it did before.

And can be very shiny.

Whether Photos develops into anything remotely useful for professional photographers remains to be seen.

My guess is that it'll do like most of the rest of Apple's portfolio- it'll give you 80% of the results for 40% of the effort. Getting the final 20% of polish/functionality will be a pain in the ass. If your workflow or customers genuinely need that missing functionality you'll have to go to a specialist to find it, either different package or plug-ins.

For a lot of people, me included, that tradeoff between ease/speed and ultimate capability works out well, on balance.

FCP-X is demonstrably faster to edit with for mere mortals like myself and my wife. We just edited and graded an hour-long RED 4K movie in two days. That would have been inconceivable with FCP6/7 plus Resolve; the transcode time alone would have taken that long. We were several minutes into the editing the story before the footage even finished importing.

Pages still works absolutely fine for me for what I use it for- writing stuff down legibly so I can print it or send it around to people as a PDF, usually in Apple's default formatting (which is nice enough). If I were I specialist book publisher or author, I'd doubtless feel different.

So I'd say, sadly, Aperture getting canned is entirely in character for Apple.

What they may have learned is that they need to give us a heads-up about these things, not just say "you can't buy the old version as of this morning" which I think was really the cock-up with FCP.

So my bet is they'll bring out Photos to general derision but with enough functionality a year down the line that a lot of generalists, even professional generalists like me, might find it worth checking out.

For everyone else, there's C1 Pro or LR5.

Cheers, Hywel.

 
« Last Edit: July 03, 2014, 01:09:01 PM by Hywel » Logged
BobShaw
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« Reply #72 on: July 03, 2014, 04:52:05 PM »
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Slam dunk?
Nah, just more laughs. Something a nameless person read on the Internet. LMAO.
It is always funny when people who don't like Apple products come onto an Apple forum to expend their knowledge of Google.
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john beardsworth
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« Reply #73 on: July 03, 2014, 05:06:03 PM »
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Or are you laughing to hide your embarrassment? Never heard of the Veblen Effect? It predates Google by a few years, you know.
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trichardlin
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« Reply #74 on: July 04, 2014, 12:54:25 AM »
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... Apple seems to feel no concern about disrupting those businesses.  They do it under the guise of technical progress....

You made it sound like Apple will some how make Aperture stop functioning any day now.  This can not be further from the truth.

The fact is that you can still buy Aperture today, and it will still function tomorrow.  It will continue to support new cameras as Apple releases new RAW support at the system level.  Apple has promised that Aperture will run under the new OS X, which means Aperture will continue to functions in the next few years even if you keep up with the latest OS updates.  I don't understand how your business is going to be disrupted.  To me, it sounds like there will be several years of transition time before Aperture will not work under the newest OS.


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BobShaw
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« Reply #75 on: July 04, 2014, 07:18:16 AM »
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Serious? My fabourite theory is the is the two shooter theory, closely followed by Rosswell.

My observations are that people who have money didn't get that way by giving it away or becoming wimps about buying things that don't work. They can afford lawyers and know their rights.

The company I worked for until recently turned over $60Billion and could afford lots of IT support, but they still changed PCs every 3 years. For most professional users, they have no IT staff. A computer is a tool, it is not a hobby to pull apart and see how it works.  That's why I buy a Mac. The last one was still working when I gave it away after 5 years. Return on investment.
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Robert Roaldi
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« Reply #76 on: July 04, 2014, 07:19:34 AM »
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Hasn't it been pretty clear for a long time that Apple has been purposely transforming itself from a maker of niche education and arts business tools into a generic consumer tech company? Heck, I use Apple products every day, but I hold no illusion that they are tightly tied to the graphics art world anymore.

You're right, that trend was apparent. OTOH, they also continued to sell and support applications that were obviously designed to appeal to "pro" users (however that's defined). Just because they decided to pursue a new market, why does it necessarily mean they have to abandon an old market. There's room for both, I would have thought, but that's their business. And as someone else on this thread pointed out, maybe they haven't. They seem to be allowing enough time for people to transition, and that maybe by that time, Photos will be "pro"-usable. But then they should say that. People's business decisions depend on that. I can understand what professionals who rely on these tools for their livelihood would be nervous when they don't hear those words.

My own (and my personal beef) is only that they stopped supporting new RAW formats in Lion and didn't tell anyone that's what they were doing. I faced a situation where if I wanted to continue to use Aperture, I'd have to replace a perfectly usable hardware platform because new RAW support in Lion was halted. There was some (mild) criticism that it was somehow "wrong" that I should expect a 8-year old computer to still work for me.  As if I did something wrong because I wasn't following the Apple game plan.
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ButchM
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« Reply #77 on: July 04, 2014, 10:15:17 AM »
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My own (and my personal beef) is only that they stopped supporting new RAW formats in Lion and didn't tell anyone that's what they were doing. I faced a situation where if I wanted to continue to use Aperture, I'd have to replace a perfectly usable hardware platform because new RAW support in Lion was halted. There was some (mild) criticism that it was somehow "wrong" that I should expect a 8-year old computer to still work for me.  As if I did something wrong because I wasn't following the Apple game plan.

I can relate. I also own a 24" 2006 iMac 2.16Ghz machine. It runs great. Unfortunately, it's hardware configuration will no longer support newer, advanced code in order to run the latest OS. When I purchased it, I never fully expected it to be relevant eight years after it was offered. I also never expected it to be fully supported this far down the road. It is no secret that ALL tech companies reach a crossroads where implementing new more advanced features also includes abandoning some of the legacy offerings of the past. For Apple that crossroad, it was seven years back. For Adobe , they sever ties with each full point release of Lightroom. They will not back pedal even one generation which turns out to be 1.5 - 2 years max. In my estimation, the 2006 iMac I now use for tasks that no longer include RAW image processing, has brought a return on investment many times over the price of admission. It's not as though I am being slighted by Apple.

You did nothing wrong. Frankly, Apple did nothing wrong either. It's just the luck of the draw. More than likely, the next generation of OS X past Yosemite will not be able to support back to 2007 architectures ... Time and technology never stands still. We must all keep going forward or we will always remain locked in the past. No matter the longevity of the hardware we are fond of.
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Robert Roaldi
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« Reply #78 on: July 04, 2014, 11:44:07 AM »
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You did nothing wrong. Frankly, Apple did nothing wrong either. It's just the luck of the draw. More than likely, the next generation of OS X past Yosemite will not be able to support back to 2007 architectures ... Time and technology never stands still. We must all keep going forward or we will always remain locked in the past. No matter the longevity of the hardware we are fond of.

Agreed. It grates a little that simply buying a new camera means this many potential platform changes, but as you say, that's life. But I bought Lightroom (v.5) the other evening and it understands my new camera's RAW. I can't "see" the E-M10's ORF images in Finder or Preview, but I can live with that. I used to use Preview for my first cull, now I use LR instead. Just means pressing different buttons.

As an ex-software engineer, I'd question the system design decision to tie RAW format to the O/S, but I'm sure they had their reasons. At some point, Yosemite will support RAW formats that are no longer supported on the Mavericks platform, and some other guys (like me) will be annoyed by that in 2-3 years' time.

In one of my other entries in this thread, I mentioned the idea of using the camera manufacturer's RAW converter to create DNG files and then import those files into one's photo application of choice. That workflow could insulate one from some of these disruptions. At least you know that the software you get when you buy a camera will always understand its RAW. To be honest, other than using DPP when I bought a Canon G3 years ago, I've never even looked at the software that came with the cameras. I wonder if there are undiscovered gems there. For amateur fun users like me, that workflow might be fine. I might look at that, but frankly, downloading and testing software is not something I do for fun, only when I have to.

Btw, to complete a thought from an older post, I did download and try out AfterShopPro (formerly Bibble) the other day. It's ok, not quite up to snuff with Aperture 3 or Lr5, probably at the Aperture 2 level, but that's VERY roughly speaking. It's 1/3 of the price of Lr5 (here in Canada).
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trichardlin
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« Reply #79 on: July 04, 2014, 12:46:59 PM »
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Here's my thought of the day:

Apple has never been in the 'pro' or 'niche' market.  Mac's mission from day 1 has been 'for the rest of us.'  Remember MacDraw or MacWrite?  Those are easy to use programs (I guess I should call them apps now) so that common people can use them to produce professional looking documents without spending a lot more money to hire pros (secretaries (can we still use this word?) and illustrators) and using expensive equipment (type-setting) to produce similar results.

Fast forward to Aperture.  Although it was originally marketed as a 'pro' app, it was really simple and streamlined so that everyman like me can do sophisticated image adjustment and management without using complicated and expensive 'pro' apps like Photoshop.  When its price dropped to less than $80, you know it's not for the pros.  Pros use it just because it's capable enough to produce the results they want.

Don't forget that even the original Photoshop was meant to be a common man's tool so an average user can do complicated image manipulation without hiring a professional illustrator to do that using pen and paper or in a dark room.  Over time, it has evolved into a monstrosity and no longer for an average consumer.

So here we are, Apple has decided yet again to try something new with consumer photo tools.  From what I've read, it's going to be something interesting.  For others who would rather stick to the old model, there's always Adobe.

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