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Author Topic: Hasselblad CFV50c  (Read 14288 times)
Doug Peterson
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« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2014, 09:55:37 PM »
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The rotating sensor is unfortunately a thing of the past.  The recent Leaf backs don't have it either, the Phase One backs never had it.

For clarity for readers who have not used a Phase or Leaf on a V body...

Rotating sensor was a nice feature of legacy Leaf backs. You could rotate from shooting horizontals to shooting verticals by turning a wheel on the back. The back remained on the entire time.

All other V-mount Phase and Leaf backs however still have the option of rotating the back itself (remove/rotate/replace), to allow a vertical or horizontal capture. This requires another 2-3 seconds and does introduce some possibility of a piece or two of dust. It is, however, IMO, a pretty simple operation.

« Last Edit: July 21, 2014, 10:10:17 PM by Doug Peterson » Logged

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EricWHiss
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« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2014, 02:13:03 AM »
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I wonder if this opens the door to more CF backs?   Hasselblad had said they wouldn't make any more, but wow that would be cool to have a universal back that would fit all the different adapter plates they made for the CF backs. 

I'm still a fan of the universal back and adapter plates for each camera approach.
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2014, 02:42:45 AM »
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Hi,

Yes it is exciting news, but I feel the cropped sensor makes little sense. Hopefully, it can be rotated like the P45+ back I have.

With 1.1X crop factor I would be a potential buyer especially if combined with live view. Now, I would say it is like bottle that is half empty and half full. Good that Hasselblad still targets V-system users with new products.

Best regards
Erik


http://www.hasselbladusa.com/news1/2014-07-21_cfv_50c.aspx
This is excellent news!
Hoping for the same price tag of €11,000 and a Hy6 mount one day...
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aaron
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« Reply #23 on: July 22, 2014, 05:24:46 AM »
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For something to be called a wasted opportunity, there must be an alternative that was not taken up.

What's your alternative to this sensor?

The number of CMOS Bayer sensors larger than 35mm format on the market is exactly...one. This one.

If Hasselblad had not used the one and only large(-ish) colour CMOS sensor to make a high performance V-series back, now that would have been a wasted opportunity!

Ray

That's one way of looking at it of course.

I believe it's a wasted opportunity in that it's a waste of Hasselblads time and resources (in my opinion!).

Hasselblad have just launched a new back with a smaller sensor than what they had in their previous cfv back for a camera platform which they have now discontinued. I don't really see that as progress.

So my alternative is to do something else entirely....
« Last Edit: July 22, 2014, 05:27:18 AM by aaron » Logged
ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #24 on: July 22, 2014, 05:35:55 AM »
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Hi,

Agree on that, but…

The sync cable needs to moved. The present version of the X-sync cable needs to be doctored if used in vertical orientation with the PM5 viewfinder. The good news is it can be doctored.

The back rotation is a nice feature as the V-series is built for horisontal operation.

Best regards
Erik




For clarity for readers who have not used a Phase or Leaf on a V body...

Rotating sensor was a nice feature of legacy Leaf backs. You could rotate from shooting horizontals to shooting verticals by turning a wheel on the back. The back remained on the entire time.

All other V-mount Phase and Leaf backs however still have the option of rotating the back itself (remove/rotate/replace), to allow a vertical or horizontal capture. This requires another 2-3 seconds and does introduce some possibility of a piece or two of dust. It is, however, IMO, a pretty simple operation.


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torger
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« Reply #25 on: July 24, 2014, 10:17:37 AM »
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Really great news, showing that V-mount is not fully dead. That it's 44x33 is of course because that's the only sensor around, and lack of live view is because the Hasselblad back platform is not ready performance-wise for that yet. If there will be a larger CMOS sensor it will come too, and at some point Hasselblad will upgrade their back platform (if they just survive as a company). It seems like a new start for MF.
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #26 on: July 24, 2014, 12:45:50 PM »
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Hi Anders,

You have any info on the survival issue?

Best regards
Erik

(if they just survive as a company). It seems like a new start for MF.
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torger
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« Reply #27 on: July 24, 2014, 02:19:52 PM »
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Hi Anders,

You have any info on the survival issue?

Best regards
Erik


No I don’t have any connections with that kind of information. Usually only a small group of owners, management and economic administration people know the true status. A company in financial trouble don't want employees, customers or anyone else to know, as it may cause "abandon ship" and fail the company in a tough situation that it otherwise can survive.

I'm just guessing like everyone else that they do have a tough time, based on product strategy we have seen.
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NickT
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« Reply #28 on: July 24, 2014, 05:04:42 PM »
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I think there's a good chance we will see live view enabled on this back in the near future. Smiley
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tjv
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« Reply #29 on: July 24, 2014, 06:41:06 PM »
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Nick, that news – although I can not afford to buy this back at this moment – almost brings tears to my eyes. If I wasn't sitting in a cafe using my laptop, I'd be a blubbering mess. In other words, the total opposite of the cliche image of a Kiwi male.
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Chris Livsey
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« Reply #30 on: July 25, 2014, 02:35:15 AM »
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Surprised we have had no pricing comment.
In the UK the back is £9500 against the 50c Camera complete at £18,700. So the camera body is £9,000 - don't think so  Grin

Note: these prices are Ex our sales tax VAT @20%
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tjv
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« Reply #31 on: July 25, 2014, 03:00:53 AM »
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Yes, the CFV is vastly cheaper. Granted it's back only, but even so. The H5d-50c and Phase IQ250 are a ton more no matter how you slice the cake. For someone like me who's only interested in using the back on a tech cam - providing it plays well with the 32HR and live view eventuates - it's a no brainer!
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gazwas
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« Reply #32 on: July 25, 2014, 03:33:34 AM »
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Surprised we have had no pricing comment.
In the UK the back is £9500 against the 50c Camera complete at £18,700. So the camera body is £9,000 - don't think so  Grin

Note: these prices are Ex our sales tax VAT @20%

I was thinking the exact same thing last night while browsing ebay for used 503CW's.

I know the H camera and lenses are really nice and have been considering getting an H4/5D-50 but this new back looks (apart from firewire 800) to be a winner. Its about time the big MFD players started making their latest and greatest kit more accessible to more people.

Well done Hasselblad for being the first yet again!
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torger
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« Reply #33 on: July 25, 2014, 04:54:12 AM »
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I didn't see the price at first. I'm not surprised that it's substantially cheaper though, and it's surely the right move. The CFV product will likely not sell much at all to pro photographers, but mostly to (nostalgic?) amateurs and for that market I think a lower price is the right thing. For middle class people there's a huge difference between £9500 and £19000, it can be the difference between reachable and unreachable.

Here in Sweden the V system is 99.5% dead professionally, which I say based on contact with the major Hasselblad dealer, it's H system all in. Just checked, they've now removed the CFV backs from their web even. This strengthens my assumption that the CFV aims primarily for the amateur market. As a side effect it opens up for a lower cost tech cam back for longer lens photography. Don't forget that this is the Sony CMOS, it still sucks for tech wides.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2014, 05:01:49 AM by torger » Logged
torger
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« Reply #34 on: July 25, 2014, 05:07:14 AM »
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Another thing I missed until now is that the CCD version CFV-50 (49x37mm) has been discontinued. This is interesting, as the H5D-50 (same sensor) still is in the line. It shall be interesting to see what happens in the second hand market. CFV backs have had good value thanks to the V-system look/nostalgia.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2014, 05:11:20 AM by torger » Logged
tjv
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« Reply #35 on: July 25, 2014, 05:17:49 AM »
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Hi Anders,
I know you've done a lot of analysing of RAW files from the IQ250 and have come to the conclusion that this sensor isn't great, or "sucks" as you put it, with tech wides. What kinds of test files have you seen that have led you to feel very confident of that conclusion? I'm curious, because at this price and with (potentially) live view, it's a great proposition IF it works well with the Rodenstock 32HR when employing movements. Have you seen samples with clear blue skies, etc?
Thanks!
TJV

I didn't see the price at first. I'm not surprised that it's substantially cheaper though, and it's surely the right move. The CFV product will likely not sell much at all to pro photographers, but mostly to (nostalgic?) amateurs and for that market I think a lower price is the right thing. For middle class people there's a huge difference between £9500 and £19000, it can be the difference between reachable and unreachable.

Here in Sweden the V system is 99.5% dead professionally, which I say based on contact with the major Hasselblad dealer, it's H system all in. Just checked, they've now removed the CFV backs from their web even. This strengthens my assumption that the CFV aims primarily for the amateur market. As a side effect it opens up for a lower cost tech cam back for longer lens photography. Don't forget that this is the Sony CMOS, it still sucks for tech wides.
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torger
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« Reply #36 on: July 25, 2014, 05:44:02 AM »
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Hi Anders,
I know you've done a lot of analysing of RAW files from the IQ250 and have come to the conclusion that this sensor isn't great, or "sucks" as you put it, with tech wides. What kinds of test files have you seen that have led you to feel very confident of that conclusion? I'm curious, because at this price and with (potentially) live view, it's a great proposition IF it works well with the Rodenstock 32HR when employing movements. Have you seen samples with clear blue skies, etc?

It has been a few months since I dived deep into it, so I have to trust my memory a bit. The issue is crosstalk, which in mild doses lead to desaturation and reduced color separation and accuracy, and in heavy doses to demosaicing artifacts. As it has a gradual onset (not linear though! Varies vertically vs horizontally and also depending on shift due to microlens offset, sensor is designed to be in center) some people will accept more degradation than others, and it will also be subject dependent. A scene with muted colors is less affected than a scene with bright colors etc. Overcast sky will probably work fine as the color will be similar to the LCC shot. With color deviating strongly from the LCC the residual crosstalk error will be more noticable. A plain blue sky will probably not be too bad either as it's generally low in saturation.

In short, crosstalk lead to various effects which is not really predictable. One scene may come out fine, another may be plagued with issues. I don't think it's a good idea to put any high end system into large levels of crosstalk.

The 32 HR will work fine without shift, but you can't shift much at all if you want to be free of crosstalk artifacts. Even the 40 HR has issues, possibly even more as I think it's a less retrofocus lens than the 32HR. If you shift and stitch to compensate for the smaller sensor size you will definitely have color issues, it you care will be personal. The SK28 has pretty gross crosstalk when shifted on a regular IQ160 but still some use it.

Apart from Doug's public files I've got some anonymous contributions (I work with a crosstalk cancellation algorithm and have had some success so far, but still far from production use). I have from the 32HR and 40HR and SK60 but no longer if I remember correctly (got some more files recently which I have not had time to look at yet), so I don't know where the breakpoint is where you can use without restrictions. As longer lenses tend to be less retrofocus you may need to step up to like 70mm or so before you are without crosstalk issues for shifted positions.

It should be said that I'm more conservative and concerned about color stability than most others, so I'm sure some will be happy despite color issues. It does seem like most MF tech cam shooters don't mind some color issues as long as it's good in the center of the lens. Sharpness and resolution is for many priority 1, 2 and 3 and color is 4, the reason is probably because it's harder to evaluate.

To be clear: this is only a tech cam issue, the V-system lenses will work very well with this back of course.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2014, 05:53:45 AM by torger » Logged
eronald
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« Reply #37 on: July 25, 2014, 06:27:32 AM »
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I think quite a few people would still be prepared to shoot an old Hassy with a square fullframe sensor in spite of the mediocre old Zeiss lenses and optical finder.

warning - silly season until september - warning

Edmund
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #38 on: July 25, 2014, 07:23:52 AM »
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Hi,

Yes, of course! The question is if they are going to pay for it?!

Best regards
Erik


I think quite a few people would still be prepared to shoot an old Hassy with a square fullframe sensor in spite of the mediocre old Zeiss lenses and optical finder.

warning - silly season until september - warning

Edmund
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JV
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« Reply #39 on: July 25, 2014, 07:32:22 AM »
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Yes, of course! The question is if they are going to pay for it?!

If you are talking inflated Phase One prices no, if you are talking Pentax prices yes.
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