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Author Topic: $100 per mm? Leica 100/2  (Read 3594 times)
BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #20 on: August 11, 2014, 07:42:16 PM »
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I think that if you want a good F11 lens for MF, then for a 50MP sensor you will have that anyway with most modern lenses due to the diffraction limitation from the sensor, and the possibility of correcting CA and deformations in software. The same for a 35mm lens @ F8. So the price one pays is for good wide-open performance, but at these apertures it can be argued that one wishes for Bokeh even more than sharpness. I don't think landscape shooters should pay those prices, maybe portraitists should, but not for sharpness ...and they will want AF precisely because it is an interactive exercise. Which leaves us with certain product shots etc ... is this really the domain of the Otus?

I am a bit unclear whether your comment adresses S lenses or the Otus, but here is my view about the Otus.

- The Otus works very well for environmental portraits and it reasonably easy to focus at f1.4/f2.0 on the D810. The only lens that may be superior is the Nikon 58mm f1.4 that offers the nicest bokeh I have ever seen, but at the cost of less color purity.



- The Otus also works very well as a stitching lens at f5.6-f11 because it is basically perfect with close to nothing to correct in software. Yes, it is possible to get close with cheaper lenses and software correction, but as far as I am concerned the 50~ mm is my most used focal length for stitching so it makes sense to invest in the best,



- The Otus is finally also a great walk around lens. Some may argue that it is a bit large, heavy and too visible but why bother shooting with anything lighter than the heaviest you can carry? Besides, street shooting shouldn't be about hiding/stealing images, should it? Wink



Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: August 11, 2014, 07:46:10 PM by BernardLanguillier » Logged

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eronald
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« Reply #21 on: August 11, 2014, 09:31:24 PM »
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Bernard,

You're happy with the Otus - that's the main thing.
It is clearly a unique lens, combining both draw and sharpness.
Unfortunately it is MF, and I have given up on MF due to aging eyes and extreme laziness.
My Canon 85/1.2 is almost welded onto my 1Ds3, and I guess will remain my solution for the foreseeable future when I want to use an SLR. I don't do landscape so I have no real need for super-sharpness.

Edmund



I am a bit unclear whether your comment adresses S lenses or the Otus, but here is my view about the Otus.

- The Otus works very well for environmental portraits and it reasonably easy to focus at f1.4/f2.0 on the D810. The only lens that may be superior is the Nikon 58mm f1.4 that offers the nicest bokeh I have ever seen, but at the cost of less color purity.



- The Otus also works very well as a stitching lens at f5.6-f11 because it is basically perfect with close to nothing to correct in software. Yes, it is possible to get close with cheaper lenses and software correction, but as far as I am concerned the 50~ mm is my most used focal length for stitching so it makes sense to invest in the best,



- The Otus is finally also a great walk around lens. Some may argue that it is a bit large, heavy and too visible but why bother shooting with anything lighter than the heaviest you can carry? Besides, street shooting shouldn't be about hiding/stealing images, should it? Wink



Cheers,
Bernard

« Last Edit: August 11, 2014, 09:44:27 PM by eronald » Logged

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« Reply #22 on: August 11, 2014, 09:37:54 PM »
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Bernard,
Nice photos!
Eric
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JV
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« Reply #23 on: August 11, 2014, 11:06:27 PM »
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Huh?


The Leica S/S2 is the medium format deal of the century, if you

#1 shop around and find a demo or lightly used with warranty (see Steve at Capture Integration).

#2 you buy an adapter for an H or Contax lens.

H lenses are falling out of the trees and they have central shutters if you need them.

I find CS not a big deal as flash duration will freeze a lot better than the shutter and even outside I can easily overpower the sun, except maybe in the palm desert at mid day.

Both shot with focal plane shutters 1200 watts and the Contax sync is only 1/90th.



Sometimes you just use the tools you have and everything works out.



IMO

BC


BC,

Not disagreeing with anything you said but reading the Leica forums the non-availability of a CS version appears to be a deal breaker for some.

Prices for the Leica S are still a bit on the high end I find.  Prices for the Leica S2 are just right now I feel.

I have a S2 body on order.  It comes with a year of Leica USA warranty.

Joris.
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« Reply #24 on: August 12, 2014, 12:51:36 AM »
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I haven't been as successful using lights to stop action as I have with the leaf shutters + lights.  Partly this is because the lights have a pretty long duration when you use them at high power - at least my Profoto D4 packs do - I measured them with a mumford time machine light cell - it goes from 1/2000 to 1/4.   If I am using a camera mounted flash, maybe it works because these have much faster flashes - I always use the little flashes for macro work for that reason.   But so often there are a mix of lights in a set up - you can't always get what you want with slow sync.  I think leaf shutters are also advantageous for many other types of shooting where not having a FPS helps get a steadier shot.
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« Reply #25 on: August 12, 2014, 07:06:19 AM »
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I haven't been as successful using lights to stop action as I have with the leaf shutters + lights.  Partly this is because the lights have a pretty long duration when you use them at high power - at least my Profoto D4 packs do - I measured them with a mumford time machine light cell - it goes from 1/2000 to 1/4.   If I am using a camera mounted flash, maybe it works because these have much faster flashes - I always use the little flashes for macro work for that reason.   But so often there are a mix of lights in a set up - you can't always get what you want with slow sync.  I think leaf shutters are also advantageous for many other types of shooting where not having a FPS helps get a steadier shot.


Eric,

 I seem to remember the guy who designed the original Elinchrom warning me that dialing their flash *down* increased duration. Maybe I got it wrong? Or Profotos are different?


Edmund
« Last Edit: August 12, 2014, 07:10:37 AM by eronald » Logged

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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #26 on: August 13, 2014, 12:07:53 AM »
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I seem to remember the guy who designed the original Elinchrom warning me that dialing their flash *down* increased duration. Maybe I got it wrong? Or Profotos are different?

My Profoto D1, and recently acquired B1, have shorter flash duration at lower power outputs.

Cheers,
Bernard
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Manoli
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« Reply #27 on: August 13, 2014, 04:45:04 AM »
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... Partly this is because the lights have a pretty long duration when you use them at high power - at least my Profoto D4 packs do - I measured them with a mumford time machine light cell - it goes from 1/2000 to 1/4 ...

Aren't the D4's something of an antique in lighting technology unless you need 4-head output from a single generator ?  The B4 1000 Air gives me a range of 1/25,000-1/2,200s.

Fast enough, even at the longest duration, to relegate the A7r shutter vibration to an irrelevance.
Oh, and I almost forgot - if the palpitations get out of control it'll even fire at up to 30 times a second [/light hearted quip]
« Last Edit: August 13, 2014, 05:05:16 AM by Manoli » Logged
bcooter
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« Reply #28 on: August 13, 2014, 06:03:13 AM »
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I'm not saying to use any equipment that doesn't give you an advantage.

Leaf Shutters are ok, though like the Hasselblad H the top shutter speed is only 1/800th which really doesn't
freeze fast motion.

It's also a sliding scale that the higher the shutter, the slower the duration the less power you have available because your cutting into the flash like continuous light.

I personally think flash duration is the only way to really freeze fast moving subjects.  

I shot this series with Acute monoblocks, but mostly older photogenic monoblocks.   I have about twenty of them and acquired them for years.  They're not the sexiest
equipment but they work and produce a lot of light at low settings.



Anyway, the p30+ and Contax is what I had, the photogenics worked in testing so I shot the gig.

I did briefly test an H series in this configuration and didn't see any advantage, though shooting on white with a lot of ambience bounce, the H series cs does help.

We all get caught up a new camera will do something different but sometimes (actually manytimes) we already have the camera that will get to where we want.

But back to the Leica.  Leica glass has always been expensive, though seems to hold it's value better than most lenses.   

I bought an S2 because I wanted to and enjoy it.  It's very well built feels like quality and shoots a good file.  Is it a better deal than a Nikon  . . . to me yes, to others
probably not, but if cost is an issue, Contax or H series lenses are fairly inexpensive (in the big lens world) and work very will with the S series.

IMO

BC
« Last Edit: August 13, 2014, 06:10:59 AM by bcooter » Logged

eronald
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« Reply #29 on: August 13, 2014, 06:43:07 AM »
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A fast portrait lens was a big request when the S camera was launched.
Now it's here - albeit at a price.
I think we should praise Leica for listening to its customers - and go take some pictures because most of us are not in the target audience Smiley
For those who want a nice cheap MF portrait lens - I do remind you that the 110/2 Planar costs $500 and mounts impeccably on a Mamiya.

Edmund
« Last Edit: August 13, 2014, 06:51:00 AM by eronald » Logged

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« Reply #30 on: August 13, 2014, 07:07:20 AM »
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A fast portrait lens was a big request when the S camera was launched.
Now it's here - albeit at a price.
I think we should praise Leica for listening to its customers - and go take some pictures because most of us are not in the target audience Smiley
For those who want a nice cheap MF portrait lens - I do remind you that the 110/2 Planar costs $500 and mounts impeccably on a Mamiya.

Edmund

I have the 100mm f2 planar and have only used it half a dozen times.  The adapters for the contax are dumb and have to be manually stopped down, also the lens is not cheap.


Manual focus is slow, wide open it's usually what eyeball would you like to see and overall it's a beautiful piece of glass I find fairly non useable in todays digital capable bodies.

The only point I was making was everyone jumps on Leica as the investment banker camera and though some of that is true, my S2 has amazing build quality and Leica was either smart or
generous to give us full function adapters for Contax and H lenses, which pretty much covers any focal length you could desire.

I have the leica 120 and don't see any real "magic" compared to my contax 120mm, other than the leica is autofocus, the contax manual.

IMO

BC
« Last Edit: August 13, 2014, 07:08:58 AM by bcooter » Logged

peterv
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« Reply #31 on: August 13, 2014, 07:31:12 AM »
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Now, I guess you would agree with me that the 70mm S should be compared to a 50mm f1.8 lenses in 35mm. The f1.4 spec is driving most of the price of the Otus.

Absolutely, and a large aperture like f1.4 can be an important feature for those who need it. Of course with the 30x45 mm S sensor one gathers 1,5 times more light.

Me, I need the CS in my S 70 mm and 120 mm lenses. I do a lot of really close up stuff handheld with flash and being able to shoot at 1/1000 for me makes all the difference between tack sharp and unusable blurry photos. I figure since the S system gives me all this resolution, I might just as well use it :-)

Question: would you consider buying S lenses instead of the upcoming Otus series if there were a reliable smart adapter?

BTW, I like the Otus samples you posted. Very nice images, thanks for sharing.

As for the new 100 'Cron, some feel it should have had a leaf shutter, others don't care. In any case I appreciate Leica making this lens, it gives the photographer more options, and that's a good thing.
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« Reply #32 on: August 13, 2014, 08:20:11 AM »
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With a fast lens, I just point the AF at the closest eyeball, and let the other take care of itself - the problem is avoiding the dreaded "eyelashes in focus, eye blurred" effect Smiley

I can imagine that under production pressure MF @ wide open is no fun, and in fact this is my point about the Otus - unusable for me in practice.

There are now several S2's on ebay at around $9K so with the new model selloff due to come, in a year or so mere mortals will be able to afford the used bodies.

I myself am waiting for the H4D40 prices to crash, as I really like the images I've seen from that body; the Leica ergonomics impress me, but the images not as much for some reason.

Edmund

« Last Edit: August 13, 2014, 09:33:33 AM by eronald » Logged

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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #33 on: August 13, 2014, 08:37:29 AM »
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Question: would you consider buying S lenses instead of the upcoming Otus series if there were a reliable smart adapter?

Yes, I would definitely consider some of the S lenses if they could be mounted on the D810. I already own 2 Leica R lenses (180mm f2.8 APO and 280mm f4 APO) and they are splendid. Their price has almost doubled since I bought them btw.

BTW, I like the Otus samples you posted. Very nice images, thanks for sharing.

Thanks, very kind of you.

Cheers,
Bernard
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« Reply #34 on: August 13, 2014, 08:10:34 PM »
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Yes, Leica glass seems to be a good investment.  :-)    I still have several of my R lenses including my two favorites - the 100mm macro and the 80 'lux.  I regret selling my 35-70 f/2.8 elmarit because the other day I noticed one for sale at $17,000

Well there may be a few strobe packs out there that get slower on lower power settings.  Frank Dorhoff and I went around on this topic several years back and that's why I went and measured mine just to make sure I wasn't blowing hot air. Maybe his is the reverse?  I don't think its as common however.    I also noted that the duration I measured on my D4's was significantly longer than profoto quotes.  I think the standard is to quote the time that most of the flash energy is going out, but there is a tail.

In my case with the Rolleiflex  the max sync is 1/1000th, but unfortunately pocket wizards only do 1/400 (multimax is 1/500th) and a sync cable is needed to get that 1/1000th which isn't so fun.  You'd think since you're already got a tether for the back, one more cable won't be a problem, but it seems the power pack is always in a different place than the laptop.


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JV
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« Reply #35 on: August 13, 2014, 08:30:55 PM »
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I myself am waiting for the H4D40 prices to crash, as I really like the images I've seen from that body; the Leica ergonomics impress me, but the images not as much for some reason.

Prices for a used H4D-40 in the US seem to about the same as for the Leica S2, i.e.. in the $8-10K range.

If you buy it from Hasselblad it comes with a warranty of 6 months.

Prices came down when the H5D-40 was released but not really any further when the H5D-50c was released.

You might be in for a bit of a wait… Smiley
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« Reply #36 on: August 13, 2014, 08:59:20 PM »
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Prices for a used H4D-40 in the US seem to about the same as for the Leica S2, i.e.. in the $8-10K range.

If you buy it from Hasselblad it comes with a warranty of 6 months.

Prices came down when the H5D-40 was released but not really any further when the H5D-50c was released.

You might be in for a bit of a wait… Smiley

I'm only 60, I think I'll give it a year Smiley

Here is the most recent Hasselblad CPO list
And here is the current list price in Europe, tax included.
http://shop.fotopartner.de/epages/Fotopartner.sf/de_DE/?ObjectPath=/Shops/Fotopartner/Categories/Hasselblad/Hasselblad-H-System/H-Sytem_Kameras#.U-wYe47I-BU
Edmund
« Last Edit: August 13, 2014, 09:03:34 PM by eronald » Logged

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« Reply #37 on: August 13, 2014, 10:00:12 PM »
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The H5D-40 is $12,995 in the US but supposedly that is only a promotion till end of September.

The CPO prices for the H4D-40 were actually cheaper initially and they flew out of the door, then Hasselblad upped their used prices to regularly (as now) give a 20% discount…

Even with the current promotion though they are no longer moving so fast, probably anybody who wanted one on the cheap (all is relative) did get one…
« Last Edit: August 13, 2014, 10:09:37 PM by JV » Logged
wildlightphoto
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« Reply #38 on: August 13, 2014, 11:41:28 PM »
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Yes, Leica glass seems to be a good investment.  :-)    I still have several of my R lenses including my two favorites - the 100mm macro and the 80 'lux.  I regret selling my 35-70 f/2.8 elmarit because the other day I noticed one for sale at $17,000

I won't mention what I paid for my 280mm f/4 APO in 2005 Wink
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« Reply #39 on: August 14, 2014, 01:07:51 AM »
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- The Otus works very well for environmental portraits and it reasonably easy to focus at f1.4/f2.0 on the D810. The only lens that may be superior is the Nikon 58mm f1.4 that offers the nicest bokeh I have ever seen, but at the cost of less color purity.

Having used the new Nikkor 58mm F/1.4 and new Sigma Art 50mm f/1.4 on consecutive "full open" portrait assignments I have to say that while the Nikkor has  nice and "personal" bokeh the corners are quite unsharp and distorted. Sigma on the other hand (I suppose Otus is the same) is razor sharp all across the frame. So I prefer Sigma, oversharp frame can be unsharpened for effect, but the opposite is not possible. I have the Sigma in my bag.

But I am fortunate enough to be able to borrow the 58mm Nikkor from my colleague when ever I feel like it...
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