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Author Topic: Hasselblad digital back and Cambo  (Read 2569 times)
TuomasU
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« on: August 12, 2014, 08:14:26 AM »
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I am an architectural photographer but relatively inexperienced in larger format systems. I am looking for some information on using Hasselblad H5D-40 digital back on Cambo WRS-1200 view camera. I would highly appreciate tips from anyone with experience on this setup such as:
- The basic setup, does this work?
- Digital back triggering and power supply
- Advice on lenses: 28mm Schneider, 24mm Rodenstock for example
- possibly issues with the setup
- any important accessories


Thank you in advance,
Tuomas Uusheimo
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2014, 10:55:36 AM »
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We're a Team Phase One Partner so I can't help with the digital back questions. But we have some information on Cambo, lens specs, and image circle visualizers here:
Digital Tech Camera Overview
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Enda Cavanagh
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« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2014, 12:29:12 PM »
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Before the H5D it was possible to power the back on a view camera with a quantum turbo 3 pack but the voltage is different on the new backs so it won't work. It's a great pity because you get a lot of shots out on the quantum. Now Hasselblad offer batteries for use on view cameras but you don't get as much juice as with the Quantum.
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gigdagefg
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« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2014, 02:56:26 PM »
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The sony batteries which power the H5D50 last quite a While and are inexpensive and small enough to carry several in your pocket while shooting. The battery adapter is also small.
I usually shoot for several hours on single battery taking well over 100 images
Stanley
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Enda Cavanagh
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« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2014, 04:22:06 PM »
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I've gone 3 days with a single charge from the Quantum shooting landscapes. It had still a charge and could have gone longer. There's a lot to be said for not having to change a battery at that vital moment.
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RomanN.
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« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2014, 06:56:04 AM »
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Hi,
There is another big point that you should know when you want to use Hasselblad H3, H4, H5 backs with mechanical Copal shutters.
becouse the H backs are made for the H system cameras the speeds of the H lens shutters and the backs have very little tolerances.
Therfor the mechanical shutters like Copal shutter works well only with speeds till 1/8 sek. When used with faster speeds you will see what happens. Hasselblad offer V backs for use with V system and technical cameras with mechanical shutters. Here the times synchronisation are made with much more tolerances, to avoid this problem. Leaf and Phase one backs are simply the first choise for technical cameras. When you want Hasselblad than go for the V back. I use a H back on the cambo WRS and had to manage  all this problems that are not official written but you get the infomations when you call Hasselblad and speak to the technician.
I used my hasselblad H back with filters so I can live with exposures speeds longer than 1/8 sek, but when I work in strong light I use a leaf back. You must make a decision for yourself if you need faster speeds or not.
To the lenses:
-it will be a problemwith the color cast to use Schneider lenses like 28 and 35 together with H4d40 back, go only for Rodenstock retrofocus lenses: HR and HR-W, (sironar digital only up 55 mm, not wider)
better you go fot the hasselblad  50 mln back- not the sony sensor, the classic kodak CCD.

all best
roman
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Enda Cavanagh
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« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2014, 08:10:49 AM »
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Of course the big plus with the Hasselblad backs is that you don't need a dark frame which is THE reason I will not change to Phase One/leaf back. It destroys several types of workflow and is a pain in the ass.

Here's a workaround for the Hasselblad backs on view camera when shooting faster exposures. In my experience the issue only happens after 1/30 second.
http://www.alpa.ch/support/photographic-know-how/can-i-use-my-hasselblad-imacon-digital-back-with-the-alpa.html

Roman have you experience with the strong colour cast issues on the H5D 40 and the Schneider wide angle lenses. I have tested the H4D 50 on the Schneider 28mm, 35mm and 47mn without any issue to the strong cour cast present on the larger sensor backs. As far as I know there is no issue whatsoever on the H5D 40 and Scneider wide angles. I couldn't test the H5d 50 because the camera died as soon as I used it with the Quantum and Hasselblad had no explanation. I received the H4D 50 to test instead. I actually went with a Sony A7r and Canon TS lens system in the end. Got pissed of waiting for a medium format back that would satisfy my needs. Providing users with the option with the new CMOS backs with live view (tethered only with H5D 50c back) but at the same time seriously limiting their uses with view camera/wide angle lens combinations (view camera users would benefit most from many aspects of the new backs) while providing a sensor that was REDUCED IN SIZE after gearing users towards larger sensors in recent years just wasn't good enough.

I would agree with Roman re.
the 50 megapixel back. But the H5D 50. You have the 49 x 37 mm sensor. You won't have issues with Schneiders. You won't have issues with a 1.3 crop and you get 2minutes which is fine for most situations. I would actually go for the H4D instead of the H5D. Same sensor and essentially the same camera but you can use he quantum which is the best power supply option IMO. One power source that lasts for ever requiring 2 hours to charge up and not a gazillion Sony batteries requiring each to be charged up after a possibly long days shooting with a possible early start the next morning? A scenario I don't want
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gigdagefg
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« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2014, 09:34:09 AM »
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Not to get into a pissing contest with Enda, I used my Quantum battery (SC) with my H4D 50 and found it too bulky for my workflow and age. That is why I traded up to the H5D50 with the clip on battery. It takes me somewhere between 5 and 10  seconds to change a battery. I respect the fact that Enda is a world class photographer and I am an aged amateur,; it comes down to different strokes
Stanley
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Enda Cavanagh
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« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2014, 10:02:38 AM »
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Stanley. I'm the old fogey. Trust me Cheesy
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TuomasU
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« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2014, 02:01:38 PM »
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Thank you for all the advice so far. The situation is that I already have H5D-40 as I need it for other stuff. It does sound and I did have an idea that it might not be easy to get it working with view camera. If anyone does have a view camera setup (Cambo or other) with H5D-40 that would be the best way to start I would be interested to hear. Power issue I think I can over come and 1/30th shutter speed should be ok. However I would definitely need to get to 28mm or preferably 24mm wide angle. Cambo helpdesk answered me the following: "Wide angle lenses in the range you are interested in and that are performing well with your type of digital back are the Digaron 23, Digaron 28 and Super Digitar 28xl." Is this not the case?

Thanks,
Tuomas
« Last Edit: August 14, 2014, 01:48:01 AM by TuomasU » Logged
Enda Cavanagh
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« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2014, 03:58:15 AM »
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Yes I am sure they will work with the back. The strong colour cast mentioned by Roman only applies to the largest sensor backs. BUT IF ANYONE HAS FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE OF ISSUES ON A H5 or H4D 40 BACK PLEASE SAY. I DONT WANT TO GIVE OUT FALSE INFORMATION!!

The sony batteries mentioned by Stanley is the way to go if your are going with the H5D. The 28mm xl is a lovely lens as long as you stay away from the large sensors. You can work with a lot of shift and there's next to no distortion. I've no first hand experience with these Rodies but I hear they are great lenses too.


 
Thank you for all the advice so far. The situation is that I already have H5D-40 as I need it for other stuff. It does sound and I did have an idea that it might not be easy to get it working with view camera. If anyone does have a view camera setup (Cambo or other) with H5D-40 that would be the best way to start I would be interested to hear. Power issue I think I can over come and 1/30th shutter speed should be ok. However I would definitely need to get to 28mm or preferably 24mm wide angle. Cambo helpdesk answered me the following: "Wide angle lenses in the range you are interested in and that are performing well with your type of digital back are the Digaron 23, Digaron 28 and Super Digitar 28xl." Is this not the case?

Thanks,
Tuomas

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epines
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« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2014, 02:29:59 PM »
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No one has yet mentioned that the H5D-40 has microlenses, which can create problems in the image when shifts are applied. There's a lot online about this already. I can't specify all the problems, since I have a non-microlens back (H3DII-39) on my tech camera. But it's something to be aware of.
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gigdagefg
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« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2014, 06:50:39 PM »
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I have been enjoying the H5D50 with the Arca Swiss RM3DI and the 32mm Rodie, the 72mm Schneider, the 120mm Schneider and the 210mm Schneider. I have shifted extensively without issues.
I have been photographing for over 50 years with everything from a 4x5 Speed Graphic to a Nikon d4 and Nikon d800e, but the images from these lenses and the Blad back just blow me away
Stanley
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Enda Cavanagh
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« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2014, 05:53:52 AM »
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No one has yet mentioned that the H5D-40 has microlenses, which can create problems in the image when shifts are applied. There's a lot online about this already. I can't specify all the problems, since I have a non-microlens back (H3DII-39) on my tech camera. But it's something to be aware of.

Are you not referring to the issue found on the large sensor backs? Personally I haven't read or heard about any issues with the H4D 40. I just googled to see if there was any issues with that back on a view camera . re colour cast issues and shift on Schneider wide angles and can not find anything. All the stuff I have ever read about (and there is a lot online) was about the larger sensor backs not the smaller backs . Can you provide a link. You mentioned there is a lot online about it. If anyone has info I this I (and the OP of course) would be really keen to know because there is so little out there re. Hasselblad backs on view cameras.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2014, 09:55:42 AM by Enda Cavanagh » Logged

Enda Cavanagh
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« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2014, 05:58:03 AM »
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I have been enjoying the H5D50 with the Arca Swiss RM3DI and the 32mm Rodie, the 72mm Schneider, the 120mm Schneider and the 210mm Schneider. I have shifted extensively without issues.
I have been photographing for over 50 years with everything from a 4x5 Speed Graphic to a Nikon d4 and Nikon d800e, but the images from these lenses and the Blad back just blow me away
Stanley

Ya if I was to upgrade it another medium format back from the current lineup it would be to the H4D 50. Because like you say there are no issues. I'd just go with the H4D because of my preference for the Quantum battery. The sensor and max exposure are the same . I use the Arca RL3D and I must say I love it. The e module is ridiculously accurate for my uses. and I usually shoot with a a lot of depth of field content so the module is invaluable. Especially without live view!!
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #15 on: August 15, 2014, 10:07:24 AM »
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No one has yet mentioned that the H5D-40 has microlenses, which can create problems in the image when shifts are applied. There's a lot online about this already. I can't specify all the problems, since I have a non-microlens back (H3DII-39) on my tech camera. But it's something to be aware of.

Yes, the 40mp Kodak sensor in the H5D-40, like the 50mp CMOS sensor in the IQ250/CFV-50/H5D-50C and the 31mp sensor in the H3D-31 and P30/P30+ are not the most flexible choice for tech cameras. They have very strong micro-lenses and will show severe color cast and other image-issues even with moderate movement, even with retrofocus designs. If you go this route, please make sure to test the specific lens and movement combinations you're interested in to see if the results suit you, and know that you'll need to stick with less-wide lenses, less strong-movements, and more strongly retro-focal lens designs.

(note this is in no way meant to slam Hassy - it's a sensor specific thing which applies to some of their backs, and some of Phase's backs as well)
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DOUG PETERSON (dep@digitaltransitions.com), Digital Transitions
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Enda Cavanagh
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« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2014, 10:18:25 AM »
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Wow Doug. Thanks for the info. Interesting to hear that from someone like yourself. Not often we get feedback. I guess it's because there are  few Hassie users with H back/view camera combos. Would I be right in saying like with the other problem sensors that the Rodie 32mm and 40mm lenses are the best wide angle choices? Can the 23mm Rodie be used too. The cropped sensor might make that the best option for the OP
« Last Edit: August 15, 2014, 10:46:40 AM by Enda Cavanagh » Logged

Doug Peterson
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« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2014, 02:09:19 PM »
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Wow Doug. Thanks for the info. Interesting to hear that from someone like yourself. Not often we get feedback. I guess it's because there are  few Hassie users with H back/view camera combos. Would I be right in saying like with the other problem sensors that the Rodie 32mm and 40mm lenses are the best wide angle choices? Can the 23mm Rodie be used too. The cropped sensor might make that the best option for the OP

Rodenstock would definitely be preferable to Schneider. They will not be free of issues, but will have significantly less limitations than the equivalent Schneider.

As an example of how practical usability varies between different sensors you could see our IQ250 Technical Camera tests which compares a 80mp, 60mp, and 50mp Phase One back. Of the three the IQ260 allows the largest range of movement with each lens. It shows the IQ250 can be used with a tech camera but with significant limitations on range of allowed movement with any given lens. Likewise I'd expect the Kodak based Hassy 40mp systems but with significant less allowed range of movement compared to other hassy/phase backs. There will also be some difference depending on which companies lens-correction tool is being used to remove color cast and other frame abnormalities.

I'm concerned about even a 32mm or 40mm lens, let alone a 23mm depending on what amount of movement the OP would need to be happy. But I can't answer directly; only a specific test of such a combination would tell you what to expect. It's very possible no such test has ever been done as the heavily micro-lensed sensors are not the usual suggestion for a tech camera user.
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epines
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« Reply #18 on: August 15, 2014, 02:09:43 PM »
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I have been enjoying the H5D50 with the Arca Swiss RM3DI and the 32mm Rodie, the 72mm Schneider, the 120mm Schneider and the 210mm Schneider. I have shifted extensively without issues.
I have been photographing for over 50 years with everything from a 4x5 Speed Graphic to a Nikon d4 and Nikon d800e, but the images from these lenses and the Blad back just blow me away
Stanley

Yep -- I'm sure shifting has been issue-free for you. That's because your back is the H5D-50, a 37x49mm sensor without microlenses. The OP asked about H5D-40, a 33x44 sensor with microlenses.

Agreed -- the quality from the backs on tech cameras is great.
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RomanN.
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« Reply #19 on: August 15, 2014, 04:57:36 PM »
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hi,
my some thoughts to the sensor and lenses.
Indeed the microlenses design of the little chips like 31 and 40 mln as of the big 80 mln pixel could be problematic.
the 40 mln chip seems to be much better for tilt/shift as the older 31, that is simply no go.
You already have the 40 mln sensor- that is not the best choice for the cambo, but it is so.
The 24 mm Schneider would be great for using with non microlenses chips like the older 39  or 33 .
with your 40 mln back the color cast should be the point- the imagecircle would be OK for the little 33x44 mm. the 24 mm schneider is cheap compared to rodentsock, so maybe you could test this combination with a rental lens.
I sold my 24 mm when I bought leaf 12. The imagecircle ( 60 mm), OK, is to small, but this was not the case, but the color cast, that was simply horrible without any movements.
Rodenstock 23 and 28 mm have 70 mm imagecircle, this will be nice for your 33x44 mm chip. I use both lenses on 80 mln back with something like 5 mm movements. The 23 mm has little better corners than 28 mm- that is indeed spectacular, but the 28 mm is older and possible to get second hand. I am sure that both of them will work well with 40 mln microlenses chip also.
Rodenstock 40 mm is a great lens for big shifts: it has bigger image circle that 90 mm. I can shift 22 mm with 80 mln chip. The corners are perfect sharp to the last end. The price of the lens is also not too high. I would say this is the first choice lens for architacture.
Rodentsock 32 mm is a beast, crazy sharp, the image circle is not so big as at the 40 mm, but 17 mm shift on the big sensor are no problem.
32 and 40 mm should have the same 90 mm imagecircle in theory but they dont have, 40 mm have more. In some situations when I shifted with 32 mm to the extreme  the corners are not so perfect sharp as with the 40 mm. OK, the lens is wider and it is simply much more difficult to correct such lens. Also the price of the 32 mm is a point: its double of the 40 mm.
I still use also the schneider 35 mmxl with my older 39 back. It is simply great little lens and preatty cheap now on second hand marked. great for  39 and 50 mln Kodek but no go with leaf 80 mln, becouse of the cast. In your situation I would  rent this lens also to test it with your back.
Maybe the color cast problem with your back will be not so problematic. This could be the right lens for you.
I hope my experiences can help you a bit.
roman
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