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Author Topic: photokina 2014  (Read 5023 times)
Ken R
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« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2014, 06:21:33 PM »
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Additionally to the (IMO correct) above... I believe that the real "star" for pros (and more) in photokina will be the Cambo Actus... This "jem" accompanied by Sony A7/R/S, will give to many pros (and more) the ability to work around expensive solutions that would include MFDBs and view camera with digital lenses, yet retaining the vast majority of the creativity and perhaps even improve on productivity. It may be cruel, but I expect some serious further decline in MFDB sales because of it and perhaps prices to be forced down to more "sensible" levels.

Especially if 35mm lenses of wider image circle (like the Samyang 24mm f3.5 P/C or the old 28&35 P/C Nikkors) prove to provide "real" WA solutions (just a thought-it remains to be tested), I expect to hear many "what the Hey" by users of Hi-end equipment...

I also expect the Actus to have a much wider appeal to imaging than many (even the more optimistic ones) consider... I expect the Actus to be really successful among serious videographers and filmmakers...  Cool

Its great to have options. But for the few of us who want / need a robust tethering (or wifi) solution for client supervised work the choices are limited to basically PhaseOne and Hasselblad. Combined with CaptureOne and Capture Pilot the IQ backs are just the best in the business for tethered and client supervised work. Hasselblad would be second and a distant third would be Leica. The Cable for the Leica S/S2 is very very nice but the software is not there in the same league as C1pro/C-pilot.

For those of you who work mostly by yourselves then those things matter MUCH less and you can assemble up a frankencamera and as long as you produce the results no one would care if the workflow is not as smooth or fast and everything takes a bit more work. No one would see that! Most of us work with limited budgets so we make do with what we can afford even so there are more options today than ever which is awesome. A lot of people though that MF Digital was going to die but I see it thriving. Hopefully there are some more exciting new MF digital products released this coming Photokina to build on an already extensive offering.
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iluvmycam
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« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2014, 06:42:12 PM »
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I'd like a 6mp FF affordable back for my SWC...$2500 - $3000 range.

A Leica knockoff from a Japanese maker 24mp to 28mp would be fine for $3000.
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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2014, 07:03:38 PM »
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the quotes around budget signified a little tongue in cheek. it is the lowest priced mfdb with the cmos sensor that can attach to a tech camera i believe, hence the word budget. you can buy about 4 nikon d810's for the price of the cfv-50c so budget is a relative term. with  camera sales as a whole in the doldrums what exciting things do people think would reignite sales in either mf or ff.


I used quotes on the term budget because I was quoting you, not for any tongue in cheek implications. And I do specifically see the Pentax as a budget-friedly consideration, but other than the CFV-50c, which will have a limited audience, I do not see Hasselblad as a budget-friendly manufacturer with their other products (well, relatively, depends on the size of your budget, of course!), any more than I do Phase One or Leaf.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
« Last Edit: August 21, 2014, 07:41:47 PM by Steve Hendrix » Logged

Steve Hendrix
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MFDB: Phase One/Leaf-Mamiya/Hasselblad/Leica/Sinar
TechCam: Alpa/Cambo/Arca Swiss/Sinar
Direct: 404.543.8475
Theodoros
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« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2014, 07:22:58 PM »
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Its great to have options. But for the few of us who want / need a robust tethering (or wifi) solution for client supervised work the choices are limited to basically PhaseOne and Hasselblad. Combined with CaptureOne and Capture Pilot the IQ backs are just the best in the business for tethered and client supervised work. Hasselblad would be second and a distant third would be Leica. The Cable for the Leica S/S2 is very very nice but the software is not there in the same league as C1pro/C-pilot.

For those of you who work mostly by yourselves then those things matter MUCH less and you can assemble up a frankencamera and as long as you produce the results no one would care if the workflow is not as smooth or fast and everything takes a bit more work. No one would see that! Most of us work with limited budgets so we make do with what we can afford even so there are more options today than ever which is awesome. A lot of people though that MF Digital was going to die but I see it thriving. Hopefully there are some more exciting new MF digital products released this coming Photokina to build on an already extensive offering.

I don't see where the "vast majority" I said contradicts with your position... OTOH, is there a problem to use the Sony workflow with C1pro/C-pilot? Please excuse my ignorance if there is a problem, but since my work is mostly multishot dependent, it's "flexcolor" that is my every day "friend", so C1 is a rare choice for single shot work done with the D800E...
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david distefano
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« Reply #24 on: August 21, 2014, 07:39:22 PM »
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"Reignite?"

Sales for Phase One are up year over year, for every year since the 2008 recession.

that's great for phase one but phase one is not the whole photo industry, which is in the pits. just look at canon and nikon financials and the drop in unit sales of cameras as a whole. phase one, as any company that produces a product, must get new customers and if the vast majority are only shooting with smart phones and ipad's, the area for further growth is limited. not taking anything away from phase one but i don't think that even phase one can live on their existing customer base to increase sales but i could be wrong. the industry as a whole needs a jolt. my original question was, taking the  photo industry as a whole, what do experienced photographers think would bring back the bling in ff and mf photography.
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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #25 on: August 21, 2014, 07:48:27 PM »
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that's great for phase one but phase one is not the whole photo industry, which is in the pits. just look at canon and nikon financials and the drop in unit sales of cameras as a whole. phase one, as any company that produces a product, must get new customers and if the vast majority are only shooting with smart phones and ipad's, the area for further growth is limited. not taking anything away from phase one but i don't think that even phase one can live on their existing customer base to increase sales but i could be wrong. the industry as a whole needs a jolt. my original question was, taking the  photo industry as a whole, what do experienced photographers think would bring back the bling in ff and mf photography.


I believe camera makers have removed the sense of urgency for users to upgrade by creating products capable of very good to amazing image quality and advanced capability. Compared with 5 or 10 years ago, the average digital camera of today or even from 2-3 years ago (whether it is a $2,000 Canon or a $40,000 Phase One) is so capable that the urge to look for the "next great thing" is not near the level of the past. That doesn't keep us from wanting to see the next great thing, but whether we buy it or not is another matter. For many, while the desire may be there, the need is not as great. That is why camera sales in general, are not on the upswing. Want to reignite camera sales? Stop making such good ones.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
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Steve Hendrix
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MFDB: Phase One/Leaf-Mamiya/Hasselblad/Leica/Sinar
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david distefano
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« Reply #26 on: August 21, 2014, 09:06:50 PM »
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I believe camera makers have removed the sense of urgency for users to upgrade by creating products capable of very good to amazing image quality and advanced capability. Compared with 5 or 10 years ago, the average digital camera of today or even from 2-3 years ago (whether it is a $2,000 Canon or a $40,000 Phase One) is so capable that the urge to look for the "next great thing" is not near the level of the past. That doesn't keep us from wanting to see the next great thing, but whether we buy it or not is another matter. For many, while the desire may be there, the need is not as great. That is why camera sales in general, are not on the upswing. Want to reignite camera sales? Stop making such good ones.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

touche. your last line says it all. but steve, maybe i'm a little pessimistic, but in the old days you had your 35mm film camera. the photographer, if the bug really bit him/her would upgrade to medium or large format to create better images, which i did up to 8x20. today it is very difficult to follow the same route.  i would love to purchase an iq280 but like many people income has not kept up with the cost of living. for example my wife and i (we are teachers) have seen our income since 2000 increase by 50% but using john williams shadow statistics on inflation, combined, we have lost over 70k in purchasing power. our income would have had to double to have the same purchasing power of the year 2000. where in 2000 an iq280 would have been about 25k today it is over 40k. that 2000 price would have been easier on the finances then it would be today. yes i know i could purchase used equipment like the p45 but when i upgraded from 35mm to hasselblad to sinar, etc. i was able to purchase new equipment. when i shot the sinar 8x10 i knew that the image, if done right, would be the best that could be produced. today unless i win the lotto i know that i can never produce the very best. that does not stop me from creating images and making each shot the best that i can do with the equipment i have.  i guess that's life in the big city.
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alatreille
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« Reply #27 on: August 21, 2014, 10:58:57 PM »
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I hope pretty much nothing new is presented.

I'm quite happy with what I got, and I hope nothing new comes that makes me desire an upgrade I don't really need. This means that for me worst case is if Canon would actually show up with a high res DSLR with Sony class base ISO Wink

Quality.
Love it.
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Between the Buildings
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David Anderson
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« Reply #28 on: August 22, 2014, 12:19:36 AM »
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I believe camera makers have removed the sense of urgency for users to upgrade by creating products capable of very good to amazing image quality and advanced capability. Compared with 5 or 10 years ago, the average digital camera of today or even from 2-3 years ago (whether it is a $2,000 Canon or a $40,000 Phase One) is so capable that the urge to look for the "next great thing" is not near the level of the past. That doesn't keep us from wanting to see the next great thing, but whether we buy it or not is another matter. For many, while the desire may be there, the need is not as great. That is why camera sales in general, are not on the upswing. Want to reignite camera sales? Stop making such good ones.


Well said.

IMHO, there's plenty of room for improvement in lenses and AF even if the sensors are as good as we really need.
That said, I went through some shots taken on a V series Blad with a Phase P25 back in 2005 and they're still very good.
Maybe lacking a little dynamic range compared to the D800, but very impressive all these years later.

If they bring out a camera under 15K I'm buying the hell out of it !  Grin
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Ken R
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« Reply #29 on: August 22, 2014, 06:48:39 AM »
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I believe camera makers have removed the sense of urgency for users to upgrade by creating products capable of very good to amazing image quality and advanced capability. Compared with 5 or 10 years ago, the average digital camera of today or even from 2-3 years ago (whether it is a $2,000 Canon or a $40,000 Phase One) is so capable that the urge to look for the "next great thing" is not near the level of the past. That doesn't keep us from wanting to see the next great thing, but whether we buy it or not is another matter. For many, while the desire may be there, the need is not as great. That is why camera sales in general, are not on the upswing. Want to reignite camera sales? Stop making such good ones.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

Bingo!

The innovation and development breakthrough curve has flattened. What we see mostly with new products now are slight improvements / refinements of previous products. Not necessarily a bad thing.

 
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Theodoros
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« Reply #30 on: August 22, 2014, 04:54:25 PM »
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The MS versions of Hasselblad H5-D50c (50MS & 200MS) will also be present at photokina...  Smiley The cameras are already on sale from Hasselblad but I can't find any info on their LV ability...  Huh ...now, where is Steven Hendrix?  Roll Eyes
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eronald
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« Reply #31 on: August 22, 2014, 07:09:26 PM »
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The MS versions of Hasselblad H5-D50c (50MS & 200MS) will also be present at photokina...  Smiley The cameras are already on sale from Hasselblad but I can't find any info on their LV ability...  Huh ...now, where is Steven Hendrix?  Roll Eyes

You need to say his name three times ... Smiley
But once he appears your bank account will mysteriously empty Cheesy


Edmund
« Last Edit: August 22, 2014, 07:13:46 PM by eronald » Logged
bcooter
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« Reply #32 on: August 23, 2014, 07:27:34 AM »
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You need to say his name three times ... Smiley
But once he appears your bank account will mysteriously empty Cheesy


Edmund

Of all the people/companies I buy from around the world, nobody saves me more money than Steve.

Actually Steve just lays out the facts, never pushes you one way or the other and when it comes time to decide, usually agrees with the direction of more savings.

The only complaint I have with Steve is his company doesn't sell everything I use, because if he did he'd get all of our business . . . period.

(and no I don't get any special deals, because afaik Steve works with everyone in the same manner).

IMO

BC
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Theodoros
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« Reply #33 on: August 23, 2014, 07:52:32 AM »
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Of all the people/companies I buy from around the world, nobody saves me more money than Steve.

Actually Steve just lays out the facts, never pushes you one way or the other and when it comes time to decide, usually agrees with the direction of more savings.

The only complaint I have with Steve is his company doesn't sell everything I use, because if he did he'd get all of our business . . . period.

(and no I don't get any special deals, because afaik Steve works with everyone in the same manner).

IMO

BC
You still have to call his name ...three times!!!  Grin Unless if you can comment about how good LV is with the new MS backs instead of him...  Undecided

EDIT: Steve, Steve, Steeeeve!
« Last Edit: August 23, 2014, 07:56:48 AM by Theodoros » Logged
Dan Wells
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« Reply #34 on: August 23, 2014, 10:12:26 AM »
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The two things I'd like to see are

1.) Medium format mirrorless with interchangeable lenses. I think this is more likely to be from Sony, Fuji or Nikon (I only mention Nikon because they seem to have had a prototype floating around some years ago - nothing about their recent behavior suggests they'll release something innovative like this) than a classic MF maker.

2.) Some innovation in printers. The best selling fine art printer today is the 5 year old Epson 3880, and the most recent printers released are the iPF x300 series from 2010 (the x400 series are a very minor revision!). I'd love to see a 24 inch printer in a more compact form factor (don't laugh, the old DesignJet 130 was no larger than a 3880, although a different shape) designed for individual photographers rather than print shops. I'd also like to see a 3880 type 17 inch printer with a more modern inkset (yes, there's the 4900, but it is as bulky as a 7900 - some dimensions are actually larger). Even the best current inksets can't quite keep up with the full gamut of the best sensors we have today (various MF sensors and the D800(e)/D810/A7r sensor), so there is some room for a still further improved inkset beyond the current Epson/Canon generation. It would be nice to have more choice in roll/sheet hybrid printers, beyond only the 4900 - many photographers (myself included) do greeting cards or small prints as well as larger art prints.

Dan

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eronald
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« Reply #35 on: August 23, 2014, 02:11:38 PM »
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The one thing we are really getting is better compacts. Nobody is noticing it here, but the latest Sony, Lumix etc are really good. Not cheap, but good. 

Edmund

The two things I'd like to see are

1.) Medium format mirrorless with interchangeable lenses. I think this is more likely to be from Sony, Fuji or Nikon (I only mention Nikon because they seem to have had a prototype floating around some years ago - nothing about their recent behavior suggests they'll release something innovative like this) than a classic MF maker.

2.) Some innovation in printers. The best selling fine art printer today is the 5 year old Epson 3880, and the most recent printers released are the iPF x300 series from 2010 (the x400 series are a very minor revision!). I'd love to see a 24 inch printer in a more compact form factor (don't laugh, the old DesignJet 130 was no larger than a 3880, although a different shape) designed for individual photographers rather than print shops. I'd also like to see a 3880 type 17 inch printer with a more modern inkset (yes, there's the 4900, but it is as bulky as a 7900 - some dimensions are actually larger). Even the best current inksets can't quite keep up with the full gamut of the best sensors we have today (various MF sensors and the D800(e)/D810/A7r sensor), so there is some room for a still further improved inkset beyond the current Epson/Canon generation. It would be nice to have more choice in roll/sheet hybrid printers, beyond only the 4900 - many photographers (myself included) do greeting cards or small prints as well as larger art prints.

Dan


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PdF
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« Reply #36 on: August 23, 2014, 04:42:36 PM »
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Leica, who bought Sinar a year ago, will certainly introduce something new in the integration of both systems. Something other than just a device for carrying S2 instead of a digital back.

PdF
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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #37 on: August 23, 2014, 08:25:01 PM »
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You still have to call his name ...three times!!!  Grin Unless if you can comment about how good LV is with the new MS backs instead of him...  Undecided

EDIT: Steve, Steve, Steeeeve!



Sorry, I was a little busy today (see attachment). I took an IQ280, Alpa STC, and Rodenstock 40HR home with me this weekend to hopefully take some recreational photographs, which I haven't had time for in a good while. But I forgot about my scheduled visit to see the Grandkids. But this gave me an opportunity to try a portrait with the STC/40HR, which I've been wanting to do for a while, so I photographed this painter in his studio.

As far as LV goes, haven't see it yet - I hope it's a lot better (it should be) because live view for focus/composition is a critical app for repro work.

Edmund, your wallet remark was funny - and BC thanks for the nice words.

Now, you guys all know that Photokina is only about 3 weeks away, can't you wait?  Wink


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
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Steve Hendrix
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MFDB: Phase One/Leaf-Mamiya/Hasselblad/Leica/Sinar
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Direct: 404.543.8475
eronald
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« Reply #38 on: August 23, 2014, 09:30:24 PM »
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Sorry, I was a little busy today (see attachment). I took an IQ280, Alpa STC, and Rodenstock 40HR home with me this weekend to hopefully take some recreational photographs, which I haven't had time for in a good while. But I forgot about my scheduled visit to see the Grandkids. But this gave me an opportunity to try a portrait with the STC/40HR, which I've been wanting to do for a while, so I photographed this painter in his studio.

As far as LV goes, haven't see it yet - I hope it's a lot better (it should be) because live view for focus/composition is a critical app for repro work.

Edmund, your wallet remark was funny - and BC thanks for the nice words.

Now, you guys all know that Photokina is only about 3 weeks away, can't you wait?  Wink


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

Steve

Is there a humor category in the Photokina photo competition? because you certainly have a good late entry Cheesy

Edmund
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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #39 on: August 23, 2014, 10:07:59 PM »
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Steve

Is there a humor category in the Photokina photo competition? because you certainly have a good late entry Cheesy

Edmund

I will post one more indulgence before collapsing for the night.

I didn't realize my young painter was also a budding photographer, with impeccable taste!


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
« Last Edit: August 23, 2014, 10:46:24 PM by Steve Hendrix » Logged

Steve Hendrix
Sales Manager, www.captureintegration.com (e-mail Me)
MFDB: Phase One/Leaf-Mamiya/Hasselblad/Leica/Sinar
TechCam: Alpa/Cambo/Arca Swiss/Sinar
Direct: 404.543.8475
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