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Author Topic: glossy paper for 4800  (Read 8692 times)
tjanik
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« on: November 14, 2005, 06:30:41 PM »
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I am seeking suggestions for a glossy paper to use with the 4800. A little background information: I printed Cibachromes for many years, starting in 1974 with P3 chemistry, nasty chemicals but beautiful prints, I still have some that have been on display for 30 years without any noticeable fading. I lost my darkroom and did not print for a long time. A few years ago I saw some 7600 prints at an art show that knocked my socks off. So I acquired a 2200 and learned to appreciate matte papers, but Cibachrome is still the look I prefer for certain prints. I have tried the following with the 4800: Epson glossy, very nice but there is a slight ripple in the surface I would prefer not be there; Ilford gloss, similar to Epson; lIford high gloss, beautiful, no bronzing even with the 2200 inks, but only available in 8 ˝ x 11 (does anyone know why?); Pictorico high gloss film, great, but too expensive for routine use; Moab kopoelli gloss, a major disappointment, it shows considerable bronzing with K3 inks (at least my one test print did). Thanks in advance for any suggestions.
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photo570
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« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2005, 06:52:36 PM »
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Have you seen the new(ish) Kodak papers. They are available in all sizes including rolls, and come in E and F surfaces and are supposedly mechanically identical to the chemical papers, so you can put a "Traditional print" next to a digital and see no difference, this is straight from our Kodak rep, and you know what, it's actually true. We have done some test prints with images that really look like crap on regular gloss stocks, and the difference is HUGE. NO bronzing. NO gloss differential, nada, zip, zilch. Very impressive, we now use it for all our "Gloss" requierments.

Try it, I think you will like the F surface, not quite Ciba gloss, but the best Inkjet results I've seen, handsdown.

Cheers.
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Jason Berge
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« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2005, 08:06:59 PM »
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I've been extremely pleased with the look & feel of Epson's premium luster paper. The slightly "pebbled" finish does not detract from the image, at least to my eye, and it seems to handle a heavy ink load more gracefully than straight glossy paper.
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KenS
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« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2005, 11:29:42 AM »
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I am seeking suggestions for a glossy paper to use with the 4800. A little background information: I printed Cibachromes for many years, starting in 1974 with P3 chemistry, nasty chemicals but beautiful prints,
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I too printed on Cibachrome and have many 16x20 and larger prints in great condition hanging in my home...AND I REALLY miss the equivalent of that glossy polyester based paper for inkjet prints.  Most of my Cibachromes are framed without glass.

For the last two years I've been printing on a variety of luster and glossy papers with an Epson 4000 (soon to upgrade to a 7800).  While I agree with the above post that the Kodak Pro Glossy paper is a very good paper (noticeably reduced bronzing compared to others I've tried on the Epson 4000 -  and I expect even better using K3 inks) it is not anything like Cibachrome glossy.

[a href=\"http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/products/papers/inkjet/sizes.jhtml]http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professiona...jet/sizes.jhtml[/url]

The Kodak Pro Glossy surface is actually a bit less glossy than the Moab Kokopelli or Red River Ultra Pro Gloss I've used (which if I remember correctly from early tests I did is pretty similar to Epson Glossy).  I also print on luster papers (Red River Polar Satin and Jnkjet Art Microceramic Luster) and when framed under glass or plexi they tend to look a bit more like Ciba but I find the reflections to be bothersome and I feel they still lack the 'depth' of Cibachrome glossy prints.

At present I am unaware of any substitute for Cibachrome that comes in sizes up to at least 16 inches wide.  On a more positive note, if you like placing your prints in a binder I've found the Light Impressions "Polyester Page Protectors" ["Archival Grade Dupont Polyester Melinex"] are excellent and that the Kodak (and other) papers do indeeed take on a Cibachrome look when placed in these very clear and shiny page protectors.

Good luck.
Ken
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tjanik
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« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2005, 02:36:17 PM »
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Thanks to all for the suggestions.  I like the Epson luster and have ordered some Kodak and Red River glossy.  Ken, if you miss the depth of Cibachrome, you might try the following: print on Pictorico overhead transparency film and mount with matte paper as a backing.  It is the closest I've achieved to Cibachrome, the image is formed by light reflecting both off the surface layer of ink and the white backing and gives an illusion of depth.  I think it does soften the image a bit though.
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KenS
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« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2005, 04:16:38 PM »
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Ken, if you miss the depth of Cibachrome, you might try the following: print on Pictorico overhead transparency film and mount with matte paper as a backing.  It is the closest I've achieved to Cibachrome, the image is formed by light reflecting both off the surface layer of ink and the white backing and gives an illusion of depth.  I think it does soften the image a bit though.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=51880\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Interesting approach; printing on Pictorico overhead/matte paper.  I just placed my order for an Epson 7800 and I think I'll be trying it out.  Apparently the K3 inks work okay on transparency film? (I am pretty sure my UltraChrome Epson 4000 inks would not).

Hope the Kodak Pro Glossy (and Red River glossy) works out for you.  I was very impressed this weekend by the half dozen B/W prints I saw on the Kodak Pro Glossy with an Epson 4800 ... absolutely no bronzing or Gloss differential (scenes with deep shadows and bright white clouds).
Ken
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michael
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« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2005, 05:34:26 PM »
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Try Pictorico High Gloss White Film. The closest thing to Ciba that I've ever seen.

Michael
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KenS
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« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2005, 06:43:00 PM »
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Try Pictorico High Gloss White Film. The closest thing to Ciba that I've ever seen.

Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=51897\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I just checked the Pictorico web site and discovered they do sell a 24 in x 39 ft roll.  Perhaps this size is new... I have been unable to discover any other places that might sell this a bit cheaper.  BH Photovideo sells this Pictorico product at a substantial discount in sizes up to 13x19 inches.  I sent them an email to see if they can sell it, perhaps with a  price closer to $200 (vs $289 !) for the 24 inch roll.

Thanks much for the info,
Ken
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Jack Flesher
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« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2005, 07:51:15 PM »
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I saw some of the new Kodak pro Gloss paper come off a 4800 today and have to admit I was impressed -- a bit too glossy for my tastes, but VERY close to a traditional air-dried F surface.  Interesting thing was there was NO gloss differential between the highlights and paper white.  A bit more GD showed in the shadows compared to IJA gloss, but alas, inkjet is not yet perfect -- just darn close  

If you want the wet Ciba look, I too suggest the Pictoico High Gloss White film -- it is probably as close as you will get currently to the Ciba wet look with inkjets.  I will go so far as to say if you then mount the print behind glass or plexi you will be hard pressed to tell the difference between it an a traditional Ciba print.
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KenS
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« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2005, 05:55:52 PM »
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If you want the wet Ciba look, I too suggest the Pictoico High Gloss White film -- it is probably as close as you will get currently to the Ciba wet look with inkjets. 
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=51908\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I contacted Pictorico and learned that they do not have a profile for the Epson 7800 (and presumably K3 inkjet printers in general).  They don't plan to create one "in the near future" either.  

If I like the High Gloss White Film I would have a custom profile made by Cathy's Profiles (which has been successful for me in the past with other papers)... However, I would first like to evaluate a small package of Pictorico High Gloss White Film before spending money on custom profiles or larger paper sizes.

To perform a preliminary evaluation it would be most helpful to have some idea of what to use from a list of available Epson (or other readily available) profiles!  Any suggestions for a starting point i.e. profile and printer settings?  

Ken
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Jack Flesher
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« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2005, 01:06:19 AM »
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Start with the canned profile for Epson Premium Gloss -- the colors won't be right (probably) but at least you'll be able to tell if it has the general look you are after.
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dmcginlay
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« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2005, 12:53:14 PM »
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Start with the canned profile for Epson Premium Gloss -- the colors won't be right (probably) but at least you'll be able to tell if it has the general look you are after.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=51963\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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dmcginlay
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« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2005, 12:54:29 PM »
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Check out DOP latest posting:

http://www.outbackphoto.com/printinginsigh...i039/essay.html
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tsjanik
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« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2005, 03:28:08 PM »
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Hi All:

Thanks for the discussion and suggestions.  I tested a number of glossy papers on the 4800 in my search for a Ciba-like print.  I will relate my observations in case it might be helpful to others reading this post.  I used one PS file for my test prints, a close-up fall foliage shot, predominately red, yellow and green (the sort I would like on Cibachrome).

For sheer glossy flatness of the surface, Pictorico HGF and Ilford Smooth High Gloss (not Smooth Gloss) clearly stand out and are indistinguishable to my eye (even at 10x magnification, the surfaces look identical).  Unfortunately Pictorico is expensive and does not supply profiles (I used the UC ink profile and, to no surprise, the reds were redder and the blacks blacker).  The Ilford SHG (also a polyester base) is half the price of Pictorico HGF but is only available in 8.5x11.  

The remaining papers tried are: Epson Premium Glossy, Red River Ultra Gloss, Moab Kokopelli Gloss, Kodak Glossy and Ilford Smooth Gloss.  I each case I used the manufacturer’s profile for the 4800.  The Kodak paper yielded a darker and somewhat redder print than the others.  The colors in the remaining papers are identical; I cannot identify the paper on the basis of color, quite a testament to inkjet technology.  I can identify each paper, but only on the basis of surface texture.  Each has a slight ripple in the surface that is unique.  The ripple has the effect of reducing the perception of gloss differential.  The Epson paper appears particularly effective at this.  My conclusion: I would choose the Pictorico or Ilford SHG if the lighting is controlled to reduce GD, otherwise Epson or Red River, or really any of the others.

Regards,

Tom
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KenS
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« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2005, 02:44:51 PM »
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Hi All:

... I tested a number of glossy papers on the 4800 in my search for a Ciba-like print.  I will relate my observations in case it might be helpful to others reading this post.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=52432\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Tom,
Thanks for posting your findings.  I plan on ordering some Pictorico and trying it out on my 7800.  If I have anything to add I'll post here again in a few weeks.  It's really unfortunate that Ilford doesn't make their Ciba equivalent in larger sizes.
Ken
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tsjanik
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« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2005, 05:22:44 PM »
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Tom,
Thanks for posting your findings.  I plan on ordering some Pictorico and trying it out on my 7800.  If I have anything to add I'll post here again in a few weeks.  It's really unfortunate that Ilford doesn't make their Ciba equivalent in larger sizes.
Ken
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=52511\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Ken :

There may be more size choices in the future.  I contacted Ilford and received the following reply:

A request for larger sizes has been made with the factory, but that we are
advised by them there are presently production issues that prevent this,
and therefore until these are solved it will not be possible.

We will post a information on our website if/when the larger sizes become
available.

Thank you for your interest.
ILFORD Imaging USA Inc
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Frere Jacques
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« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2005, 03:42:40 AM »
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I had some trouble this spring with my 2100 eating sheets of Ilford SHG at the end of the page. Ilford replied that the film is very sensitive to environmental conditions & that spring was environmentally 'abnormal' in Europe. Revenge of global warming I guess ;-)

Anyway, I like the look of the film and as Pictorico does not appear to have a French distributor, it would be great if Ilford can get their product out in larger sizes!



Quote
Ken :

There may be more size choices in the future.  I contacted Ilford and received the following reply:

A request for larger sizes has been made with the factory, but that we are
advised by them there are presently production issues that prevent this,
and therefore until these are solved it will not be possible.

We will post a information on our website if/when the larger sizes become
available.

Thank you for your interest.
ILFORD Imaging USA Inc
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=52517\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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jule
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« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2006, 05:45:55 PM »
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Anyway, I like the look of the film and as Pictorico does not appear to have a French distributor, it would be great if Ilford can get their product out in larger sizes!
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I have just recieved a roll of Ilford Omnijet White Film Instant Dry/Piezo 7mil. I needed a high gloss media for my subject matter - water, so I thought I would give it a try. There were no samle packs available but I was quite desperate, so I went the whole hog and purchased a 44" roll. Catalogue number 112846, code ON1WF7 .

Other medium and wide format widths in other Ilford Omnijet range available;
[a href=\"http://www.omnijetweb.com/html/en_new/products.asp]http://www.omnijetweb.com/html/en_new/products.asp[/url]

From the first couple of prints it looks promising. Looks just like Ciba, carefull handling required like Ciba, expensive, but my images look great. I do however have some more work to do with the profile.

My local dealer made a profile for me, but it just doesn't seem quite right. Ilford do not have profiles for use with this paper and the Epson 7800,9800 yet, but do for the Epson 4000, 7600,9600, and various other printers. I am not competant to do my own so I will out-source. Any suggestions for good profile practitioners in Australia? ...or should I post target print to one of the reputable  US profile companies? Suggestions welcome.

Julie
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Brian Gilkes
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« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2006, 11:21:49 PM »
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For profiles
Les Walkling
les@leswalkling.com
Cheers
Brian
www.pharoseditions.com
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jule
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« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2006, 03:30:21 PM »
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For profiles
Les Walkling
les@leswalkling.com
Cheers
Brian
www.pharoseditions.com
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=57396\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thanks mate! Will contact him.
Julie
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