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Author Topic: ImagePrint 6.1 for Black&White  (Read 18533 times)
bjornaagedk
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« on: December 01, 2005, 12:29:51 PM »
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A few weeks ago I bought an Epson 4800 and the ImagePrint 6.1 RIP.

I have had Imageprint since version 5 and used it with my Epson 2100.
After days of experimenting with the 4800 and the Phatte Black solution, my conclusion is that ImagePrint does a VERY good job when we are talking about color printing on both matte and glossy/lustre papers. I have tried various papers with matching profiles from the ColorByte profile library and the result is first class prints out of the printer everytime.
I normally make my own printer profiles with the EyeOne Pro, but the ImagePrint profiles are so good that there are no need to try to make a better profile. Very good.

BUT - when it comes to Black & White printing with ImagePrint I am still not satisfied. Matte papers (with matte black) works fine, but I have trouble with bronzing as soon as I switch to Glossy or Lustre papers.

I have never been 100% satisfied with ImagePrint Black&White. It is free of metamerism, yes, but speaking ultimate quality, both on matte and glossy papers, I still prefer the Ultratone inks from MIS (www.inksupply.com). Their EZN / EZW inks for the Epson C86 or UT7 for Epson 2100 makes black&white in its own class. With these inks and the time to fine tune the process, you will get absolutely outstanding black&white with a depth that I have not seen from ImagePrint yet.
It is not as easy as ImagePrint, but almost, but the result is much better and you will be able to switch from cool to warm tone with adjustments in the epson driver.
ImagePrint can tint Black&White prints also, the result is mostly OK, but it can not beat the tone from UT7.

The end of my experiments was that I switched back to having LightLightBlack in the Epson 4800 again, which improved the quality on lustre/glossy papers and on black&white also.
Now I use the 4800 with photo black and use the 2100/UT7 setup for all my black&white printing.

B
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2005, 02:44:59 PM »
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Bjorn,

If you compare ImagePrint 6.1 with the Epson 4800 driver for Epson Enhanced Matte paper making color prints, do you find ImagePrint does much better at rendering deep shadow detail?
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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digitaldog
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« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2005, 03:04:29 PM »
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BUT - when it comes to Black & White printing with ImagePrint I am still not satisfied. Matte papers (with matte black) works fine, but I have trouble with bronzing as soon as I switch to Glossy or Lustre papers.

They say the try to reduce the bronzing compared to the Epson driver. But I think this is still an Epson ink/paper issue and only so much can be done with the driver. Are you seeing less bronzing using the Epson driver?
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eleanorbrown
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« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2005, 09:03:46 PM »
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I'm printing on my 7800 using IP Phatte black system.  All works very well and profiles are right on..The only problem is with bronzing on gloss/luster papers especally with black and white printing.  It is unacceptable.  However, this becomes a non issue if the paper can sucessfully be sprayed with PremierArt Print Shield spray---a couple of light coats will usually do fine.  Eliminates all bronzing.  I find that bronzing will happen whenever two tones of black are used whether in an epson driver or Imageprint.  No custom dithering or custom profiles can eliminate this.... In my opinion bronzing is an issue of (color) ink reflectance and paper surface, not the driver or profiles.  I can put my light light black ink  back into my printer and print using three blacks with either IP 6.1 K3 system or the epson driver.  Most bronzing is completely eliminated and spray is usually not needed.  Eleanor

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They say the try to reduce the bronzing compared to the Epson driver. But I think this is still an Epson ink/paper issue and only so much can be done with the driver. Are you seeing less bronzing using the Epson driver?
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colourperfect
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« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2005, 12:25:16 PM »
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I would love to see a direct comparison between Imageprint and QuadToneRIP for B+W prints.

Has anybody seen such a review

Ian

http://profiles.colourperfect.co.uk
« Last Edit: December 09, 2005, 12:25:32 PM by colourperfect » Logged
BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2005, 09:41:54 PM »
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I'm printing on my 7800 using IP Phatte black system.  All works very well and profiles are right on..The only problem is with bronzing on gloss/luster papers especally with black and white printing.  It is unacceptable.  However, this becomes a non issue if the paper can sucessfully be sprayed with PremierArt Print Shield spray---a couple of light coats will usually do fine.  [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=53097\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Eleanor,

Do you still see benefits in using a 7800 over a 7600/4000 when printing with IP Phatte Black system?

My understanding was that the disapearance of bronzing on glossy papers was one of the main benefits of K3 inks.

Another question, TCain commented a few months ago that he was concerned by the potential impact of the finish sprays on the longevity of the prints. Does that not come as a concern for you?

Thank you in advance for your kind insights.

Regards,
Bernard
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2005, 10:51:23 PM »
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Eleanor,

Bernard's question is right-on, but my reading of your post seems to suggest it is answered: you seem to be saying that the Epson 7800 does indeed eliminate bronzing on coated media as long as one is using original Epson K3 photo-black ink which they designate for those media types, but the problem is not solved with IP Phatte Black ink. Hence if I read you correctly, your post indicates that the Epson set-up is doing what it was advertised to do, but Image Print's Phatte Black is not. If that is a correct interpretation of your post and indeed what happens, it comes as a disappointment to people with 4800/7800/9800 printers who would have perceived IP6.1 with Phatte Black as having our cake and eating it (i.e. no change of inks with change of media).

Cheers,

Mark
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2005, 10:59:36 PM »
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Mark,

We are on the same page I think, I read Eleanor's post the same way you do.

Assuming that our interpretation is correct, I was wondering if K3 inks used with IP Phatte black do offer other advantages (beyond bronzing reduction) that still make the K3 + Phatte Black combo interesting.

I was for instance thinking of DR etc...

Regards,
Bernard
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2005, 11:18:47 PM »
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Bernard, I don't have IP and therefore haven't played with Phatte Black - Eleanor should advise on DR etc., but I did test IP at a retailer here in Toronto for dealing with those challenged images I have (ref. the deep shadow detail thread) and it didn't do any better than the Epson driver and profile. Now their 9800 was not loaded with Phatte Black, but it would surprise me ALOT if Phatte Black made that kind of difference - it was directed primarily at creating a solution to the ink change issue that, if successful, would give IP a niche in a market that is perhaps being technically marginalized in some respects because of the high quality, consistency and reliability of Epson's new inks, software and firmware.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2005, 11:36:27 PM »
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Bernard, I don't have IP and therefore haven't played with Phatte Black - Eleanor should advise on DR etc., but I did test IP at a retailer here in Toronto for dealing with those challenged images I have (ref. the deep shadow detail thread) and it didn't do any better than the Epson driver and profile. Now their 9800 was not loaded with Phatte Black, but it would surprise me ALOT if Phatte Black made that kind of difference - it was directed primarily at creating a solution to the ink change issue that, if successful, would give IP a niche in a market that is perhaps being technically marginalized in some respects because of the high quality, consistency and reliability of Epson's new inks, software and firmware.
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Mark,

I understand, you are most probably correct on that.

I guess that we are in slightly different situations. I am still a 4000 user considering whether he should upgrade to a 7800 at some point of time.

The ink change issue is bothering me a lot, and I am wondering whether K3 + Phatte black does still have the claimed K3 advantages compared to my 4000.

I would probably still be using the Hahnemhule papers with the 7800, so that I am not that troubled right now by shadow detail, but my main interest is whether claimed advantages of K3 inks other than bronzing (better DR, more saturated colors,...) are still present when using Phatte Black.

Cheers,
Bernard
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2005, 08:14:03 AM »
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Bernard, it looks to me as if it would be useful to accumulate more test results from Forum members or others who have Phatte Black to see whether a consensus emerges on how successful it is at maintaining K3 quality on coated media while solving the ink change problem.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2005, 08:18:07 AM »
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Mark,

Yes, having those kind of information would be extremely helpful.

Regards,
Bernard
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eleanorbrown
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« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2005, 03:15:59 PM »
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Regarding IP 6.1 and phatte black.  It is excellent and i plan to continue  keeping that system in my 7800.  As far as the bronzing is concerrned...yes it is there and no profile or RIP is going to get rid of it as long as you are limited to two blacks and color inks to form your grayscale prints (my opinion--others may disagree).  The problem depends on how particular one is....I am picky to a fault and am a bit compulsive about things like this. This may not bother the next person, but the bronzing in my monotone images on glossy/luster papers using Phatte bothers me.  Bronzing is greater with premium luster than it is using premium glossy and the degree of bronzing will vary from paper to paper and from image file to image file.  I have chosen to solve this with 2 light sprays of premier art print shield.  this doesn't concern me.  Bronzing completely disappears using this method.  I also love the fine art rag papers so plan on keeping the two ink system with IP 6.1 in my printer.  There is no difference in the matte profiles using phatte black from those using K3 ink system.  Can't tell the difference.

The K3 inks in my 7800 and 2400 printers are definitely superior to the regular ultrachrone inks (I have a 4000 also which I will probably sell).  Metamerism with thee K3 inks is close to non existent ....when printing with my 4000, my prints are more prone to shift color in different lighting situations.  Hope this helps, Eleanor
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2005, 06:53:41 PM »
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Eleanor,

Interesting what you say, because I just re-read Michael Reichmann's review of IP6.1 with Phatte Black and he seems quite satisfied that it works as advertised, after doing extensive testing with numerous papers. Not to say that you're wrong and he's right or vice versa, but just interesting to observe two very different judgments about the same issue. Either its in the eye of the beholder or there are significant differences in your respective printing environments.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2005, 07:56:34 PM »
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Eleanor, You mention the evidence of bronzing in your monotone prints using the phatte black system with the ImagePrint RIP, have you tried it with colour prints on both matte and glossy papers as well. I am interested in your findings (and anyone else who is using the phatte black system who would kindly share their results)

Julie
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eleanorbrown
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« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2005, 10:00:45 PM »
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but personally I haven't read any advertised guarentees that there won't be any bronzing with the Phatte black system on monotone prints done using papers that require photo black. Or maybe I missed seeing these guarantees.  Frankly, It really didn't matter either way because there are enough advantages of the phatte black set up that I am willing to tolerate some bronzing, which as I mentioned becomes a non issue once I apply a couple of coats of premier art spray.  I have essentially no tolerence for bronzing so what might bother me might not bother the next person...simple as that.  As I said, I'm picky to a fault when it comes to printing.

I've printed both color and monotone (color and photo black using Phatte black system presents much less of a problem with bronzing.  Bronzing is primarily a issus involving monotone printing.  I also "warm tone" most of my monotone prints  (using IP toning options) so this may add to the bronzing too as i am using more color inks.

I've printed on both matte and luster/gloss papers--both color and monotone and as I mentioned plan to stay with the Phatte black system.  I think it is incredibly innovative and an excellent time and money saver and produces superb results.  I recommend it highly. (Just get a can of premier art print shield if you plan on doing monotone prints on luster papers).  Eleanor

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Eleanor,

Interesting what you say, because I just re-read Michael Reichmann's review of IP6.1 with Phatte Black and he seems quite satisfied that it works as advertised, after doing extensive testing with numerous papers. Not to say that you're wrong and he's right or vice versa, but just interesting to observe two very different judgments about the same issue. Either its in the eye of the beholder or there are significant differences in your respective printing environments.
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jule
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« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2005, 10:08:52 PM »
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Thanks so much Eleanor.
Julie
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2005, 09:01:50 PM »
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Thank you for your kind feedback Eleanor.

Regards,
Bernard
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jmccart
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« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2006, 05:10:56 PM »
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After reading all the information for this forum and Pete Myers excellent article, I decided to call Colorbyte to see they could give me the name of someone in Atlanta that was using the 6.1 Phatte Black system.  I have called 4 times between the hours of 9am and 5:30pm to the main number.  Each time I received a voice mail answer asking me to leave a message.  They are not returning my calls.  If they have this much trouble just calling a potential customer back, I seriously question their future.  Have any of you experienced this problem?
thank you,
Jerry
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digitaldog
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« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2006, 08:12:49 PM »
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-->In my opinion bronzing is an issue of (color) ink reflectance and paper surface, not the driver or profiles.

Absolutely. While IP can help, it’s not a cure. Only Epson can hopefully solve this, maybe with K4. And you are correct, I’ve never heard ColorByte say they can and will eliminate all bronzing.
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Andrew Rodney
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