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Author Topic: ImagePrint 6.1 for Black&White  (Read 18159 times)
Stephen Best
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« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2006, 01:45:38 AM »
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Absolutely. While IP can help, it’s not a cure. Only Epson can hopefully solve this, maybe with K4.
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I thought they had with the (full) K3 inkset ... at least I haven't seen bronzing on any prints I've done.
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bjornaagedk
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« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2006, 01:53:28 AM »
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I thought they had with the (full) K3 inkset ... at least I haven't seen bronzing on any prints I've done.
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Bronzing is almost non existent with the FULL K3 inkset, both in color- and bw. prints.
But if you print with IP6.1 Phatte Black (where the LLB inks is replaced by matte black)
there is bronzing like with the previous Epson inks.
That is what makes the Phatte Black system unusable for me, because this method does
not give the advantage of the full K3 inkset. It has advantages if you switch a lot between matte
and glossy papers, but if you print mostly on glossy, phatte black is not ideal.
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eleanorbrown
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« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2006, 09:12:47 AM »
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Well, I'm going to have to eat my words about what I said concerning continuing use of Phatte black and it many advantages (which it has).  since I have been beta testing the new Crane Silver Rag paper and wanted the best possible black and white prints so I switched my 7800 back to the three shades of black/gray.  With IP Phatte black system on the Crane paper I got significant bronzing and I didn't like the paper surface as much after I sprayed with the PremierArt Print Shield.  Using Imageprint with all K3 blacks on this new paper gives me prints (with a Dmax of 2.46) that are all as good as my selenium toned darkroom prints.  With the K3 system there is absolutely no bronzing--none.  My Museo silver rag prints can remain upsprayed which is good because the paper has a lovely surface in itself.  eleanor


Quote
Bronzing is almost non existent with the FULL K3 inkset, both in color- and bw. prints.
But if you print with IP6.1 Phatte Black (where the LLB inks is replaced by matte black)
there is bronzing like with the previous Epson inks.
That is what makes the Phatte Black system unusable for me, because this method does
not give the advantage of the full K3 inkset. It has advantages if you switch a lot between matte
and glossy papers, but if you print mostly on glossy, phatte black is not ideal.
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Tonsil
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« Reply #23 on: January 12, 2006, 10:52:27 AM »
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Form Colorbyte's website....


"PHATTE BLACK IS HERE !
Phatte Black is an exciting new option that will allow users of the new Epson 4800, 7800 and 9800's to keep both the matte black, and photo black inks loaded at the same time, with no loss in quality! With the Phatte Black option, light-light black isn't used, but it won't be missed--print's made with Phatte Black show virtually no difference when compared with prints made with the standard configuration."


"with no loss in quality!"

Huh?? (note the exclamation mark)

They do qualify their statement that light light black "won't be missed" by saying that "prints made with phatte black show "virtually no difference"....

That qualification is a little soft in my opinion. Do they think that people won't notice this issue after some time? Prints always look remarkable after the printer spits them out. After a litte time, when the thrill wears off, the flaws come to be seen. Spraying prints is pretty much of a drag IMHO. you might as well be back in the chemical darkroom. dust can and does settle on the surface while they are drying, it stinks...we just shouldn't have to do this.

Sales speak, such a spin game. One of the big gains, if not the biggest gain, from the K3 system is the almost complete elimination of bronzing etc. It seems like a huge leap for Colorbyte to say that LLK won't be missed. I am reading more and more, that people are dissatisfied with their results in terms of bronzing and gloss differential when using the Phatte system w/glossy & semi-gloss papers.

I feel that this is a huge issue and that Colorbyte should come clean with this sort of language on their promotional material....Colorbyte already has a lot of people badmouthing them because of their support policies. They are very stingy when it comes to support and charge a pretty good buck to guide you when you have problems, after your intitial support period expires. Yeah, you save some money on ink swaps but at what cost? The cost is basically doing without one of the major gains of the Epson K3 system.

Yes, the profiles are right on and can produce great prints WITH bronzing, seems like you might as well be using ultrachrome inks and PK with the older Imageprint software...I mean, what is the real gain without the LLK?Huh...Colorbyte has already proven that they can outdo the Epson drivers when it comes to prints with no metamerism and neutral tone..that is old news in some respect. It seems like the big coup would have been to deliver on the bronzing issue. In the end, I spose it comes down to the fact that we need one more ink slot from Epson.

Planned obsolescence is a very healthy concept for any company...did you ever see the movie called The Man in the White Suit with Alec Guinness, 1951? It's about a man who invents a fabric that will not wear out or get dirty. He soon has the entire garment industry on his tail looking to get him and do bad things to him. In the end, he is outside and it begins to rain and the suit begins to fall apart. He is dismissed from his job with textile company he works for and then, at the very end, has an inspiration as to how to how make the cloth work properly and he exclaims.."I see!"

 I am sure that these companies recognize the planned obsolescence concept and that their technologies are well ahead of the actual release points for their products, at least somewhat. I wish the release schedules were more tidy because I am in the constant cycle of getting ready to spend and I hate it. The first noises with regard to digital photography were about the convenience and cost savings that could be reaped...Ugh, could this be any more false in the reality we are in right now? Time at the computer screen...pre-press issues...printing issues, longevity, image quality. I spend way more time in post than ever before and my overhead is in a constant upward spiral. All this in a time when photography and creative dollar rates are in a squeeze.


Epson and the camera companies etc., are releasing products at such an intense rate and they are fully aware that they have the consumer and professional public at their mercy and spending huge amounts of moeny to buy the items that get them as close as they can be to the best emulation of traditional photography. You can hear the "justification" in the consumer when they say that inkjet printing is a "different" aesthetic..this with regard to printing on matte papers in particular. Yeah they look good. However, you can bet that given the choice between an actual photo and an ink jet print on matte paper, most would jump to the photo as the holy grail..when you are spending scads of money, it is easy to create these justifications in order to soothe one's expenditure.

Just my two cents on Colorbyte Software's and all the other companies' "speak". Don't get me wrong, when it gets there (it almost is) it's going to be great...If im still kicking.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2006, 10:59:00 AM by Tonsil » Logged
eleanorbrown
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« Reply #24 on: January 12, 2006, 11:11:52 AM »
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When you compare the actual profiles (irrespective of the bronzing issues) the phatte black and K3 mode do match.  can't tell the difference, and i think that's probably what the advertising is based on.  Note: the word "bronzing" is not used in the advertisment so I agree it can be misleading.  However if you want to spray your photo black prints (especially the monotone prints) , which I didn't mind doing until Museo Silver Rag came along, you can quite successfully use the Phatte black system with superb results.  In essence you can have the best of both worlds with a can of spray nearby.

Bronzing is a issue and even tho I'm a fan of Imageprint  it would help clarify things if they would address specifically the bronzing issue.  I mean after all, the bronzing is an issue of ink reflectance using two blacks, it's an epson ink thing.  Colorbyte does the best that can be done considering the ink chemistry.  Eleanor
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Tonsil
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« Reply #25 on: January 12, 2006, 12:09:45 PM »
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Eleanor,

With all due respect, the statement made by Colorbyte of "no loss in quality" is a blanket statement and is not an accurate one. "Quality" is a very general thing and these words were, no doubt, chosen to generate sales. They imply that there is no loss in "quality"..period. Except that,  there is significant bronzing on gloss and semi gloss papers. That is my beef. They qualify with the "virtually no difference" statment and that word.."virtually" is the only hint that they give you to indicate that there may be a hitch...isn't there always a hitch? Virtually is one of those words that you have to learn to raise an eyebrow at.


I've grown to be suspicious, forgive me. I've Spent a lot of money on each stage.

I love Imageprint and have no quarrel with the general accuracy of profiles. They are excellent.

Yes, it may be an Epson issue but it is a known issue and right now Epson is the leader in developing and actively pursuing the perfection of these techonologies. There are a host of other compnaies out there that are creating side market products for use in Epson printers but most of those excel in the matte paper world...a world without a quality black. My issue is not with the inability at this point in time, on Colorbyte's part, to solve the Bronzing issue along with the ink swap issue.

The issue is with the way they present their product in marketing terms. In plain words "no loss in quality" is a lie, flat out, because one very important component of "quality" in this case, is the bronzing issue.

Anyhow, time to make the donuts
« Last Edit: January 12, 2006, 12:15:37 PM by Tonsil » Logged
Brian Gilkes
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« Reply #26 on: January 12, 2006, 03:34:30 PM »
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The K3 inkset produces markedly superior greyscale prints than the earlier Ultrachrome does. Black are blacker, tonallity smoother. This is a product both of denser pigments and the third black.
I do not use ImagePrint, but I have been advised that the loss of K3 in the Phatte system adversely affects.  highlight tonality, especially in black and white , but also in colour images.
I would love to get around the stupid and expensive ink change problem too, but I am not convinced Phatte is it. At the moment it is another printer or wait for a possible fix in a next generation printer.
Another answer would be a third party RIP with a kit to add a ninth ink.
Sigh
Brian
www.pharoseditions.com.au
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