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Author Topic: Capture One Pro 3.7.1 and Color spaces  (Read 5885 times)
Phuong
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« on: December 11, 2005, 12:48:21 AM »
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I have a question regarding using ProPhoto RGB in C1 Pro (i just got it today, so i will have a lot to learn)

when i was using ACR, i always use ProPhoto as the color space. my default working space in PS is also ProPhoto.
today when i got C1 Pro, i open it, and after a while i could find the "Show Color Management Settings" menu which gives me several choices of color profiles. it has a camera profile section which i find really nice (it's not presented in ACR isnt it?) However in the destination section, although there are separated output destinations, i can't find ProPhoto RGB in neither of them (working space, web, and proof)

is there anyone has this problem or is this C1's default settings? how am i go about to use ProPhoto as the destination working space?

as far as my understanding, in C1, the Camera profile section is where you select the appropriate profile for your camera which is like a camera calibration. then the destination section is where you select the profile for the converted raw's next environment (photoshop, web, print ...)

im using Windows version of C1 Pro by the way. and im  a little disappointed when i cant customize its interface like what i saw Michael showed in the LLJV13. am i missing something here?
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francois
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« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2005, 03:26:10 AM »
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I have a question regarding using ProPhoto RGB in C1 Pro (i just got it today, so i will have a lot to learn)

when i was using ACR, i always use ProPhoto as the color space. my default working space in PS is also ProPhoto.
today when i got C1 Pro, i open it, and after a while i could find the "Show Color Management Settings" menu which gives me several choices of color profiles. it has a camera profile section which i find really nice (it's not presented in ACR isnt it?) However in the destination section, although there are separated output destinations, i can't find ProPhoto RGB in neither of them (working space, web, and proof)

is there anyone has this problem or is this C1's default settings? how am i go about to use ProPhoto as the destination working space?

as far as my understanding, in C1, the Camera profile section is where you select the appropriate profile for your camera which is like a camera calibration. then the destination section is where you select the profile for the converted raw's next environment (photoshop, web, print ...)

im using Windows version of C1 Pro by the way. and im a little disappointed when i cant customize its interface like what i saw Michael showed in the LLJV13. am i missing something here?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=53206\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'm using the Mac version of Capture One Pro, so take what I say in that perspecctive.
The output profile is set in the Process Tool pane along with other settings like dpi, file format, etc.  This allows you to define multiple output files with different settings. Look at the screen shot and tell me if it helps you.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2005, 03:27:58 AM by francois » Logged

Francois
Phuong
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« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2005, 03:45:45 AM »
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thank you francois. the process control on the Windows version doesnt seem to have that Profile selection option. also there's no Basic/Advanced tab like yours and those controls don't seem to be detachable... here's how it looks on my computer (see attached image)

this looks like Phase One treat Mac users better than Win users  
ive always proud of my dual xeon ibm system but today for the first time ever im jealous with Mac users...
« Last Edit: December 11, 2005, 03:46:50 AM by Phuong » Logged
Das Bosun
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« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2005, 04:27:10 AM »
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Hi Phuong,

I'm a long time user of C1 pro on a PC, where I've gained a lot of experience processing Nikon and Canon DSLR raw files.

I was recently at another photographers studio to introduce them to C1 pro on their Mac.  Before I began my introduction, I asked for a few minutes with their Mac version of C1 pro, so that I might figure out the PC and Mac differences with this software.

I'd have to conclude that the differences are mostly cosmetic.  Everything that's necessary is there for either platform.  In addition to the 'customized interface' that you've mentioned, the only other notible difference is being able to save and use preset 'Styles'.  (http://www.phaseone.com/Content/Software/TipsTricks/Styles.aspx)
But even 'styles' seem a bit gimmicky for my workflow.

If you're ultimately concerned about 'cross-platform equality', Phase One will be releasing a 'major upgrade' to the software in the first quarter of 2006 (smells like version 4 to me).  

With regard to the problem of loading ProPhoto RGB as a destination profile in C1pro, it wouldn't surprise me if Photoshop has been accessing the 'ProPhoto.icm' from: C:\Program Files\Common Files\Adobe\Color\Profiles

Where as C1pro is looking for the ProPhoto RGB profile here: C:\WINDOWS\system32\spool\drivers\color

If the 'ProPhoto.icm' DOESN'T exist in both places, I think you'll have found your resolve.  

Das Bosun
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Phuong
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« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2005, 04:35:04 AM »
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that's the right answer you gave me, Das Bosun thank you very much!! so PS and C1 dont load profiles from the same place & all i have to do is copying the profile to where C1 would find it. i wonder why C1 doesnt have this profile come with it though ...
anyways .. i feel much better now. the un-cusomizable interface is a minus since it will affect efficiency but i'll find a way to live with it
« Last Edit: December 11, 2005, 04:45:12 AM by Phuong » Logged
francois
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« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2005, 04:48:34 AM »
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that's the right answer you gave me, Das Bosun thank you very much!! so PS and C1 dont load profiles from the same place & all i have to do is copying the profile to where C1 would find it. i wonder why C1 doesnt have this profile come with it though ...
anyways .. i feel much better now. the un-cusomizable interface is a minus since it will affect efficiency but i'll find a way to get use to it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=53217\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
On the Mac, Capture One doesn't install the ProPhoto profile. You need to have it installed separately (it comes with Photoshop).
Anyway, glad to see that your problem is solved.
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Francois
Phuong
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« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2005, 02:11:43 PM »
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ok i've played with it a little more and now comes a new question.
in ACR since there's only 4 choices of working profile, i would choose ProPhoto for minimizing color lost.
now that in C1 i have a profile that is associated with my camera (which means i can use a specifically calibrated one for my specific camera for most consistent color accuracy) shouldn't i just use that profile instead of using ProPhoto? and then when opened in PS i won't convert it to working space but use the one that's embeded with the image which is now theoretically the most precise color space?
maybe that's the reason why ProPhoto wasn't included in the C1 package?
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francois
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« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2005, 02:29:27 PM »
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ok i've played with it a little more and now comes a new question.
in ACR since there's only 4 choices of working profile, i would choose ProPhoto for minimizing color lost.
now that in C1 i have a profile that is associated with my camera (which means i can use a specifically calibrated one for my specific camera for most consistent color accuracy) shouldn't i just use that profile instead of using ProPhoto? and then when opened in PS i won't convert it to working space but use the one that's embeded with the image which is now theoretically the most precise color space?
maybe that's the reason why ProPhoto wasn't included in the C1 package?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=53245\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
You can stay with your camera profile but when you open it in PS, you'll have to convert it to your working space or you can output your file from Capture One with the same working space that you use in PS. In the last scenario, Capture One will handle the conversion. Using a camera profile as a working space is a no-no.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2005, 02:30:22 PM by francois » Logged

Francois
Phuong
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« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2005, 02:53:54 PM »
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hmm .. interesting. when i open a file in PS, if there's a profile mismatch, i.e., the file has sRGB, i'll just choose "use embeded profile" instead of "convert to working space" since converting back & forth will degrade the image (i.e., out of gammut colors will be clipped or converted to in of gammut colors). i then save the image and will convert it to the next destination space when needed (i.e., printer profile).
so i assume the samething for images with camera profile embeded. the idea is to keep the number of conversion steps to minimum.

another thing is that converting in PS i have control over the engine as well as intent while C1 doesnt seem to give me that kind of control
« Last Edit: December 11, 2005, 02:57:30 PM by Phuong » Logged
francois
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« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2005, 03:13:55 AM »
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One thing to consider is the "internal" working space of Capture One. If it works like Camera RAW, the working space is a wide gamut space (ACR uses ProPhoto). When you change saturation, exposure, contrast, resulting colors may fall outside the camera profile [and if the internal working space was the camera profile you'd constrained in that relatively small space].

Perhaps some more knowledgeable forum users like Digital Dog could add more info.

Sorry for  phrasing my ideas so badly but migraine is hitting at my door this morning.
 
« Last Edit: December 12, 2005, 03:14:47 AM by francois » Logged

Francois
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« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2005, 03:33:57 AM »
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i understand the using of ProPhoto space. it's better to swim freely in the sea than strugling inside a small fish tank isn't it?
however here what im concerning is that, since the image is captures by the camera and assigned a profile that comes with it, those are all the possible gammut that that image could have. and because there's no way they'll fall outside of that gammut, what is the point of using a space larger than that? i mean if you convert the image to ProPhoto and then edit and later convert back to some other spaces is like spilling a cup of juice into a pool and then ladle it back, the juice'll obviously be lighter...
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Hermie
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« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2005, 05:30:08 AM »
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i understand the using of ProPhoto space. it's better to swim freely in the sea than strugling inside a small fish tank isn't it?
however here what im concerning is that, since the image is captures by the camera and assigned a profile that comes with it, those are all the possible gammut that that image could have. and because there's no way they'll fall outside of that gammut, what is the point of using a space larger than that?

I can't describe it any better than Bruce Fraser did.

Quote from Bruce Fraser on Adobe forums
“If you look at RGB matrix spaces (i.e., those defined by a white point, primaries, and gamma-defined tone curves) in a 3D lab plot like those offered by the ColorSync utility or Steve Upton's indispensable ColorThink, you'll see that they all reach their maximum saturation at a fairly high luminance level. The gamut narrows dramatically at lower luminances, tapering to a point at black.

Print spaces plotted the same way have a different shape, where maximum saturation is achieved at lower luminance levels. (In an RGB space, you make more saturation by adding light, on a printer you make more saturation by adding ink, so this makes sense.)

So an RGB matrix space that has a wide enough gamut at lower luminances to hold the printer gamut has to have extremely wide primaries that may not represent anything that's physically possible. Obviously, that leads to the space containing non-realizable colors. It's the trade-off you make when you want to create an RGB matrix space that contains all the realizable colors from your printer, and that's why ProPhoto is so large.

Then there's the question of clipping. It's not at all hard to capture colors that are outside Adobe RGB. Many of the dark greens and yellows that are prevalent in nature are outside Adobe RGB, and if you convert to Adobe RGB, or a smaller space, gradations of those colors get clipped to solid blobs. There's already been at least one such problem image posted on this forum. So the advantage of ProPhoto isn't about retaining all those out-of-gamut colors per se, it's about maintaining the distinctions between them, so that you can map them into printable space as gradations rather than blobs.”

Herman
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francois
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« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2005, 07:28:59 AM »
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...since the image is captures by the camera and assigned a profile that comes with it, those are all the possible gammut that that image could have. and because there's no way they'll fall outside of that gammut...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=53298\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The camera profile is used to describe what the camera is able to capture but in the RAW converter you'll apply some changes (EC, saturation, contrast etc...) and this will probably create colors that are outside the camera profile.
And keep in mind that - if Capture One works like ACR, but it's very likely the case - your RAW file will be converted using the camera profile into the internal CO working space and then when you export it (as TIFF or JPEG) to its destination profile.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2005, 08:19:00 AM by francois » Logged

Francois
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« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2005, 07:30:54 AM »
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I can't describe it any better than Bruce Fraser did.
...[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=53301\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks Herman for finding Bruce's article.

The final words are really important!
<< So the advantage of ProPhoto isn't about retaining all those out-of-gamut colors per se, it's about maintaining the distinctions between them, so that you can map them into printable space as gradations rather than blobs. >>

 
« Last Edit: December 12, 2005, 09:58:22 AM by francois » Logged

Francois
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« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2005, 09:53:18 AM »
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So the advantage of ProPhoto isn't about retaining all those out-of-gamut colors per se, it's about maintaining the distinctions between them, so that you can map them into printable space as gradations rather than blobs

i understand now. thank you Hermie and francois for explaining  
« Last Edit: December 12, 2005, 09:54:00 AM by Phuong » Logged
francois
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« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2005, 09:59:11 AM »
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i understand now. thank you Hermie and francois for explaining 
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You're welcome!
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Francois
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