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Author Topic: LCD Monitor Recommendations  (Read 440368 times)
The View
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« Reply #120 on: August 20, 2007, 03:34:42 AM »
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That's what an awful lot of photographers think or want to believe. Accurate Color is one of those marketing BS terms or a term loosely used that means very little. It can't look like the scene. It can be pleasing OR it can be colorimetrically accurate. That means you use a reference grade instrument and measure the accuracy. Anything else is just measuring with a rubber ruler.

Again and again I post this article by the ICC whereby those using the term above need to understand what they want when they say accurate color:

http://www.color.org/ICC_white_paper_20_Di...ment_basics.pdf

Read, spread the word, don't accept the term accurate until someone provides a real matrix in a measurable term. Otherwise, it's all a lot of hot air and pontificating (usually by someone trying to sell you something).

Scene referred colorimetry is accurate. Its often not what anyone wishes for expressing their images to others...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=93273\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Unfortunately, this link doesn't work. You get a "not found" message.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2007, 03:35:19 AM by The View » Logged

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« Reply #121 on: August 20, 2007, 05:53:42 AM »
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On the ICC site, I went to the "ICC White Papers" button on the left margin to get the PDF of the paper, "Digital photography color management basics." Here's the link again, in TinyURL form:

http://preview.tinyurl.com/2esfgb

As for LCD displays, I just replaced two aging Lacie CRTs with two NEC LCD displays on my Mac Pro system. For my primary display, I selected an NEC MultiSync LCD2190UXi, which is frankly spectacular. 21" diagonal, 12-bit gamma, and it pivots like the old Radius display — very useful when working on a group of images in a portrait orientation.

http://necdisplay.com/Products/Product/?pr...a4-516428de1779

It is fully DDC supported (Direct Digital Control, so that the profiling software can talk to the hardware) by the most recent version of ColorEyes Display Pro (1.30), and when profiled with an X-Rite DTP-94 gives me a DeltaE <.5.

http://integrated-color.com/cedpro/coloreyesdisplay.html

This is the same panel that is being rebadged by LaCie as the 321 LCD Monitor. For a secondary display (CS3 palettes and Bridge), I am now using an NEC LCD2070NX. Just 1" smaller on the diagonal and with only slightly less refined specifications, it too calibrates using DDC and profiles beautifully, and at less than half the cost of its big brother.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2007, 05:59:51 AM by cbcbell » Logged

Christopher Campbell
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LA30
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« Reply #122 on: August 20, 2007, 07:43:03 AM »
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I am looking for a replacement for my 21" Mitsubishi Spectraview CRT.  I own an iOne display version 1 that I use to calibrate clients monitors for them.  I am needing something this week and I was looking at the Lacie 321 w/calibrator as it would be quick and easy at a +-300.00 premium over the NEC display.  I was interested in the Samsung XL20 but I haven't heard anyone buying it or any recent reviews on it.

Ken
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digitaldog
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« Reply #123 on: August 20, 2007, 09:01:14 AM »
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Unfortunately, this link doesn't work. You get a "not found" message.
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[a href=\"http://www.color.org/documents/ICC_white_paper_20_Digital_photography_color_management_basics.pdf]http://www.color.org/documents/ICC_white_p...ment_basics.pdf[/url]
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Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #124 on: August 20, 2007, 09:08:08 AM »
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Hi Ken,

Before I purchased my NEC LCD2190UXi, I called NEC to ask about the Spectraview option where they supply their own profiling software and a colorimeter. Unfortunately, they confirmed my suspicion that the package would only work on NEC displays, and I also need to calibrate my wife's iMac, my iBook, etc. That's what pushed me to upgrade my ColorEyes Display software to ColorEyes Pro, and purchase it as a bundle with the X-Rite DTP-94, because now I have a package that can calibrate and profile just about anything I can throw at it.

People like Andrew Rodney have given the nod to the X-Rite colorimeter as the best around, and the fact that it's been discontinued as a result of the X-Rite/Gretag merger means that it's still available at a discount. The hardware/software bundle at Integrated Color is only $325, roughly equal to the premium that both NEC and LaCie charge for their profiling solutions on the 2190UXi panel, but the bundle provides a much more flexible solution to my way of thinking.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2007, 09:08:51 AM by cbcbell » Logged

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« Reply #125 on: August 20, 2007, 10:00:25 AM »
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Neoprinter (aka Dr. Karl Lang) will be leading a seminar at this year's PhotoPlusExpo in NYC, entitled, "Color Calibration & Displays." How exciting. My delta E juices are percolating already.

Assisting him will be Chris Murphy. No, that's not Chris Murphy the politician or, Chris Murphy the musician or, Chris Murphy the cartoonist. (It must be difficult to have a famous name shared by many.) Those of us who cling to every nougat and morsel of insider poop know that this Chris Murphy is the founder of Color Remedies™ and one of three co-authors of Bruce Fraser's Real World Color Management, 2nd Edition. What a 8-10-8 3D LUT coup!

Rumor has it this seminar will sell-out quickly so be sure to book your reservation asap. Unless Schewe drops 80, making room for one more on that boat to Antarctica (provided you can get invited and tolerate Resnick), opportunities to breathe the same air as Dr. Lang (and dream of ponytail fantasies) are far and few between. If you don't know when and what to buy after two hours with Lang and Murphy, then you deserve to hang on to that dead-in-the-water Artisan and cross your fingers with each calibration breakdown.
 
Special Note:
Beware of the PhotoPlus online registration process. I've never seen a more incompetent group of designers/organizers hellbent on confusing everyone. VIP Code (are you kidding me with this crap) is the same as Your Promo Code on the back of your mailed brochure. And "Conference" is the same as "Seminar." One can only assume if you sign up and pay for a "Conference/Seminar," you automatically are registered for the free entrance to the Expo. Where do they find these folks?
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LA30
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« Reply #126 on: August 20, 2007, 10:02:02 AM »
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hmmmmm
« Last Edit: October 24, 2007, 02:41:11 PM by kenscott30 » Logged
digitaldog
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« Reply #127 on: October 24, 2007, 09:18:07 AM »
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Neoprinter (aka Dr. Karl Lang) will be leading a seminar at this year's PhotoPlusExpo in NYC, entitled, "Color Calibration & Displays." How exciting. My delta E juices are percolating already.

Assisting him will be Chris Murphy. No, that's not Chris Murphy the politician or, Chris Murphy the musician or, Chris Murphy the cartoonist. (It must be difficult to have a famous name shared by many.) Those of us who cling to every nougat and morsel of insider poop know that this Chris Murphy is the founder of Color Remedies™ and one of three co-authors of Bruce Fraser's Real World Color Management, 2nd Edition. What a 8-10-8 3D LUT coup!

It was a great session! I learned a lot. Hopefully Karl will release the results of this on his site in about a month or so. The three NECs (2490, 2690 and LED) get spectacular reviews from Karl. If you need an sRGB display, the 2490 got very high quality results from the testing Karl did with very expensive spectroradiometer, something like 9000 patch samples and custom software of his design. The wider gamut display I have (2690) would do better with a colorimeter that has filters mated to the unit. It was off about 500K which is still pretty darn good. The LED was top of the heap (and it IS mated with a special filter set in an EyeOne for it's chromaticity). But you have to be using the SpectraView II software to drive the units (at a cost of a few hundred bucks with the puck, a no brainier). I really love the 2690 since its a one button affair once I setup my calibration target values. For those who like super color geek features and lots of buttons, extra costs and complexity, this isn't for you (there's that other product <g>). If you want a system that works wonderfully and easily and produces some stellar results, backed up by a guy who builds color reference systems, this is bomb.

Karl explained his testing procedures and showed all the plots which were extremely interesting and easy to digest. He said these newer displays finally bring us closer to what we had with the best of the reference CRT displays of the past. A great session.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2007, 09:21:21 AM by digitaldog » Logged

Andrew Rodney
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juicy
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« Reply #128 on: October 24, 2007, 11:01:50 AM »
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Hi!

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It was a great session! I learned a lot. Hopefully Karl will release the results of this on his site in about a month or so. The three NECs (2490, 2690 and LED) get spectacular reviews from Karl. If you need an sRGB display, the 2490 got very high quality results from the testing Karl did with very expensive spectroradiometer, something like 9000 patch samples and custom software of his design. The wider gamut display I have (2690) would do better with a colorimeter that has filters mated to the unit. It was off about 500K which is still pretty darn good. The LED was top of the heap (and it IS mated with a special filter set in an EyeOne for it's chromaticity). But you have to be using the SpectraView II software to drive the units (at a cost of a few hundred bucks with the puck, a no brainier). I really love the 2690 since its a one button affair once I setup my calibration target values. For those who like super color geek features and lots of buttons, extra costs and complexity, this isn't for you (there's that other product <g>). If you want a system that works wonderfully and easily and produces some stellar results, backed up by a guy who builds color reference systems, this is bomb.

Karl explained his testing procedures and showed all the plots which were extremely interesting and easy to digest. He said these newer displays finally bring us closer to what we had with the best of the reference CRT displays of the past. A great session.

Thanks for posting these interesting views. Btw, have you compared these monitors with Eizos top models? It would be interesting to hear about real-world differences.

Cheers,
J
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digitaldog
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« Reply #129 on: October 24, 2007, 11:08:49 AM »
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Hi!
Thanks for posting these interesting views. Btw, have you compared these monitors with Eizos top models? It would be interesting to hear about real-world differences.

Cheers,
J
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=148406\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Karl requested Eizo send him displays to test for this and they kind of refused (well they made it expensive on Karl's part to do so). But he did discuss the various high bit, internal capable displays and mentioned Eizo. His take was, while he hadn't tested their units, he said he'd be hard pressed to find better results than the NEC even at twice the cost Eizo is asking.
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Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #130 on: October 24, 2007, 11:58:16 AM »
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Karl requested Eizo send him displays to test for this and they kind of refused (well they made it expensive on Karl's part to do so). But he did discuss the various high bit, internal capable displays and mentioned Eizo. His take was, while he hadn't tested their units, he said he'd be hard pressed to find better results than the NEC even at twice the cost Eizo is asking.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=148407\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thanks!

Cheers,
J
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mistybreeze
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« Reply #131 on: October 24, 2007, 01:23:51 PM »
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Karl also said he would be testing Eizo's soon. It sounded to me like Eizo's monitors came in but too late for Karl to test in time for PhotoExpo. Karl said to check his website soon (http://www.lumita.com/) since he plans to post all current and future test results, including those of the Eizo's.

Karl had nothing negative to say about Eizo monitors but you could clearly see his discomfort with their cost. I get the impression that Karl feels photographer's overhead pain and he seems to be a scientist who appreciates great performance married to great value.

Also impressive was Chris Murphy, who recently moved his Color Remedies operation to NYC (www.ColorRemedies.com). I'm sure many NYC photographers will be quite pleased to have this color expert available for consult. With some calibration questions, Karl Lang deferred to Chris Murphy and Chris Murphy delivered brilliantly. These guys make a very impressive team.
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LA30
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« Reply #132 on: October 24, 2007, 02:38:22 PM »
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Thanks Andrew for bring back this thread!

While I was at the Photo Expo Show last week in NYC I spoke to a 'french' company about their displays.  I asked if they would have anything new for us in January, 21" size, something that shows 100% of the Adobe 1998 gamma.  The rep said why YES, maybe 97% of it, something should be out in January and it will come in blue (hint, hint).  I hope that this helps some folks.  I looked for the XL20 or XL30 from Samsung in New York and they didn't have displays at their booth.  I did say hi to the Eizo folks, nice monitors, but pricey.  I will wait till January and see what shakes out.

Ken
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digitaldog
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« Reply #133 on: October 24, 2007, 02:46:49 PM »
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You realize this company doesn't make anything (certainly not the displays)! They OEM them. And Karl discussed this. For example, many users will say "I am going to buy this Dell LCD because its the same as the NEC model XYZ). True, its the same model, it may not preform the same. Karl described how huge sheets of LCD material (think 6 feet wide) with up to 20 odd layers of stuff are made, then cut into individual units. Each is then tested in manufacturer and have to fall within a spec. Those that do, fine. Those that don't (within reason) go to the OEM. So beware of this kind of thinking that OEM's are going to give you the same quality for less money. Ain't necessarily so.
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Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #134 on: October 24, 2007, 03:06:07 PM »
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...I really love the 2690 since its a one button affair once I setup my calibration target values. For those who like super color geek features and lots of buttons, extra costs and complexity, this isn't for you (there's that other product <g>). If you want a system that works wonderfully and easily and produces some stellar results, backed up by a guy who builds color reference systems, this is bomb...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=148371\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks for sharing with us.  I use the Spectraview II software to set the display LUTs and create the profile.  Its an exceptional display and as you say, once set up, "its a one button affair."

Fred
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LA30
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« Reply #135 on: October 24, 2007, 07:02:33 PM »
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You realize this company doesn't make anything (certainly not the displays)! They OEM them. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=148452\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Yes, I know that they OEM them, but good to state that again.  That is very interesting to here that they might be 'seconds'  I did think that they were 1 gen behind NEC.  I think that I read that somewhere...  I really like the 1 button setup/calibration it takes the human element out of it.  I am very interested in a 21" monitor, that I can put in a Tenba or Lightware case for travel that shows most of the Adobe 1998 spectrum.  I am hoping to get close to 3 years out of the display.  Most of the road cases are for either Eizo or apple.  I am not sure that I want to get an Eizo and I don't want an apple.  

Thanks,

Ken
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« Reply #136 on: October 26, 2007, 09:09:24 AM »
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I recently purchased the EIZO 211, and made that decision after reading some vey helpful responses on this forum.  There are strong advocates for an NEC monitor, and if I were financially able I suspect that I would like to have the EIZO 221.

I am a giclée maker and matching the artist customer's original is a primary part of my business.  I have been pleased with the EIZO 211, especially the monitor's low contrast ratio, which helps the artist customer, during the soft proofing phase of the process, not to develop expectations that exceed the gamut of canvas as the final medium.

Certainly there are others whose experiences may help guide you to a suitable resolution with a minimum of tech talk (I must confess to being a guy who really likes to know all the details, and am responding to question with a minimum of tech talk as requested).

Hope that helps,

Jerry Reed

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My dearest Dr. Lang,

Please stop lingering and come out to play more often. You saved my life (albeit temporarily) when your genius convinced me at PhotoExpo to purchase the Sony Artisan. I believe I was the first NYC photographer to trust you and take that financial plunge.

Many of us non-geek types desperately need your guidance, knowledge and wisdom, and cling to your exiguous appearances. Why must Schewe always get such privileged access? Some of us are simple, creative-loving artists and all we want to do is play. Of course, quality helps: but this techno-digital world is bogging me down and keeping me enshrouded in dark clouds of endless gamut-babble. I prefer living in the pretty pictures I take.

With NYC real estate prices soaring to the stratosphere, I was thrilled to dump those fabulous Artisans on eBay (They sold for $1600. See the power you possess?). I won't miss their impossible-to-clean screens and I'm loving my new CRT-free workspace. Who could possibly appreciate Sony's abandonment to professionals or all those silly, clunky, heavy televisions cluttering our precious desktop space? My perfect-proof/printing obsessions are now replaced by newfound oxygen. Let me tell you, the fresh air is invigorating.

Getting back to producing art and having fun, dear...all this talk about DVI specs, LUT's, and colorimetric distance is doing nothing to enhance my sex life. And discussing .8 Delta E reminds me of a concourse at CDG: it's time to book that long-needed trip to Paris for a Lagerfeld shopping splurge. Is Delta still flying?

Isn't there someone out there who can just tell me what LCD I should purchase without all these ridiculous choices and research headaches? I'm tired of living such a complicated life. After all, I'm blonde. Aren't working photographers in enough pain? Why must we suffer more than necessary?

My Apple Display died yesterday. I'm just loving those failed backlights. I guess I should be happy the sweet thing lasted for a whopping three-and-a-half years. Apple Care expired three months ago and now I'm stuck: in need of a new monitor knowing I can reach a gamut orgasm if I wait just 2-3 more years. I need to feel reasonably sated by next week and the $800 NEC seems to be in unavailable limbo. Must I plunk down another $1800 (including coitus protection), suspecting that the manufacturer is just jerking my obsession/Prada-purse straps?

I think I'm beginning to miss film.
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« Reply #137 on: October 26, 2007, 11:59:42 AM »
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Neoprinter (aka Dr. Karl Lang) will be leading a seminar at this year's PhotoPlusExpo in NYC, entitled, "Color Calibration & Displays." How exciting. My delta E juices are percolating already.

Note that Neoprinter isn't Karl! I don't know who Neoprinter is, but Karl hasn't posted here, if he did, he'd be using Illuminant as his alias.
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Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #138 on: October 26, 2007, 02:57:35 PM »
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Interesting to hear Karl speaking favorably of the lastest wide-gamut displays. Wasn't it a statement by him a few years ago that convinced many people that wide gamut was _not_ the way to go. I guess things have changed with the improved hardware calibration some of these models offer now.
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« Reply #139 on: October 26, 2007, 03:02:11 PM »
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Interesting to hear Karl speaking favorably of the lastest wide-gamut displays. Wasn't it a statement by him a few years ago that convinced many people that wide gamut was _not_ the way to go. I guess things have changed with the improved hardware calibration some of these models offer now.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=148888\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

He doesn't feel any differently with respect to when one should use a wide gamut display versus an sRGB display. Nothing to do with the calibration aspects. In fact, in his session he said ideally you'd have a system with both and use the more appropriate display based on the imaging work.

IF you're working with images that mostly fall into sRGB (and many do) you're better off using something like the 2490. If you have images that are very saturated, you're better with the 2690. My goal is to have both!
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Andrew Rodney
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