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Author Topic: Crane Museo Silver Rag/beta testing  (Read 16970 times)
Chris_T
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« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2006, 09:04:22 AM »
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I do have quite a lot of images that have deep shadows but possibly the images don't exhibit that on my site so much, as I have been used to printing on the fine art matte papers.  However with this new Museo Silver Rag, to my delight I'm finding that I can push my shadows waaaayyy down deep and the Crane paper printed on my 7800 with Imageprint show separation down in those shadows both in color and black and white.    I'll print a file on a fine art matte paper and think, gee, this looks good, but then when I print the same file on silver rag, the image has so much more "pop" and a wonderful dynamic range.  I'm loving printing really deep now.  I have a show for Fotofest here in houston on Ft. Travis Images and I'll be printing those prints on beta samples of Museo silver rag.  the prints on this paper can take a lot of light (as in spots) which really shows up the detail in the shadows (which I'm printing darker now). Oh, and I'm shooting with deep shadows in mind now too (like back in my darkroom days!!)
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By "possibly the images don't exhibit that on my site", do you mean you do not exhibit these images or do you mean that these images' shadows don't show up on your site? If it is the latter, you may consider looking into how to display your images more accurately on the web.

What profiles do you use with the "fine art matte paper" and the "silver rag"? Print quality is a function of image types, papers, profiles and sw settings. Without all four contexts, discussions can be misleading.
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eleanorbrown
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« Reply #21 on: January 18, 2006, 08:45:48 AM »
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The images on my site are definitely not designed for printing.  Making a web site is definitely not my forte.  Prehaps I should move the black point down on some of these images shown.  When I print I do a lot of image  adjustments--levels, curves, test prints, etc.  I print using Imageprint with the appropriate profiles made by Colorbyte.  Also the Silver Rag profile is available from the Crane web site.  eleanor
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"By "possibly the images don't exhibit that on my site", do you mean you do not exhibit these images or do you mean that these images' shadows don't show up on your site? If it is the latter, you may consider looking into how to display your images more accurately on the web."

What profiles do you use with the "fine art matte paper" and the "silver rag"? Print quality is a function of image types, papers, profiles and sw settings. Without all four contexts, discussions can be misleading.
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Chris_T
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« Reply #22 on: January 18, 2006, 01:06:37 PM »
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The images on my site are definitely not designed for printing.  Making a web site is definitely not my forte.  Prehaps I should move the black point down on some of these images shown.  When I print I do a lot of image  adjustments--levels, curves, test prints, etc.  I print using Imageprint with the appropriate profiles made by Colorbyte.  Also the Silver Rag profile is available from the Crane web site.  eleanor
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=56213\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I am by no means an expert on web (some would say on anything). It took me a while to figure out how to display a PS image accurately on the web. Before I Save As jpg or Save For Web from PS, I would convert the psd files from my working space Adobergb1998 to srgb first. Without this step, the jpg images will look washed out. Why Adobe make us go through this specific step is beyond me. I don't make changes to my psd files just to display them on the web.
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #23 on: January 18, 2006, 04:15:14 PM »
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I would convert the psd files from my working space Adobergb1998 to srgb first. Without this step, the jpg images will look washed out. Why Adobe make us go through this specific step is beyond me. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=56228\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The reason why they make you go through this step is that for sending images over the internet and opening them in a web-browser quickly, the file sizes need to be relatively small JPGs; also monitor gamut is narrow; therefore the sRGB colour space with black point compensation active is used; this is necessary to preserve as correct a colour rendition as possible on multiple monitors that would display the images sent over the web.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
Chris_T
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« Reply #24 on: January 19, 2006, 07:43:33 AM »
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The reason why they make you go through this step is that for sending images over the internet and opening them in a web-browser quickly, the file sizes need to be relatively small JPGs; also monitor gamut is narrow; therefore the sRGB colour space with black point compensation active is used; this is necessary to preserve as correct a colour rendition as possible on multiple monitors that would display the images sent over the web.
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That explains the need to convert a psd file to a jpg by using either Save As jpg or Save For Web. But my question was not referring to this step. Instead I was referring to the need to covert to srgb first before Save As jpg or Save For Web. Converting to srgb first should be the default or implied step of Save As jpg or Save For Web.

Save As jpg or Save As Web allows you to compress a file size. But if a psd file is over 100dpi, which is normal when intended for print, then jpg compression is not the primary factor in shrinking the file size. Changing the psd's Image Size to 100dpi or less first before converting to jpg will significantly shrink the file size. Again, an extra step that should be part of Save As jpg or Save For Web.
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #25 on: January 19, 2006, 09:00:01 AM »
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As I said, you need to convert to sRGB because of monitor gamut. File size, colour space and file format are all kept as separate steps because different situations call for different values for each of these variables. That is the beauty of Photoshop - gives you the flexibility to adjust each aspect the way you need it. You can write an action to automatically produce a standard recipe to fit your requirements, then you forget about how many steps you need to go through for all images that have the same processing requirements.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
Mark Muse
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« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2006, 09:28:01 AM »
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Eleanor,

I have been following your comments about Museo Silver Rag with interest and have a couple of questions:

• When you push your shadows deeper I assume from the context of the discussion that you are putting more ink down. True?

• If so, are you increasing the ink density (through the RIP on your 7800 and through the driver on your smaller printer) and re-profiling?

• Are you using the HQ B&W settings in the driver and jacking up the ink densities?

• Or do you mean you are able to add significant density to 3/4 tone – midtone settings of the file itself (which does not put more ink in solid areas once a solid is reached) and still maintain the amount of shadow detail you need?

• Do you know if Museo is planning to sell this paper in rolls?

• Did Museo supply a profile? If so, did it prove to be smooth and accurate?

Thanks in advance. I will contact you off-list about another matter.

Mark Muse
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Mark Muse
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« Reply #27 on: January 21, 2006, 10:56:54 AM »
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I found the profile and downloaded it. I quick visual inspection of the gamut check table compared to Epson Semi Matte (both on a 4800–K3 inkset) shows a clearly larger gamut and interestingly much more subtlety in 1/4 tone reproduction (pastels), higher dmax – particularly in neutrals, and what seems to be cleaner (purer, less of the gray component) color.

I hasten to add these are visual comparisons of the 3d display of gamut check in the colorsync utility, not based on a comparison of actual numeric values.

I created a soft proof setup in Photoshop using the profile and viewed a few color images. The images displayed more open, with cleaner color and generally warmer than with Epson Semi Matte. As far as cleaner color, by the time I added 3/4 and middletone weight back into the image the gray component increased too, so I don't know if there will be significant gains here.

It does look interesting, but as they say, the proof is in the puddin.

Mark Muse
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eleanorbrown
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« Reply #28 on: January 22, 2006, 09:38:32 AM »
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Hi Mark,  I honestly don't know anything about increasing ink values.  I just lower the shadow tones on photoshop shop and print in Imageprint with all three black inks.  this paper will definitely be sold in rolls.  eleanor



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Eleanor,

I have been following your comments about Museo Silver Rag with interest and have a couple of questions:

• When you push your shadows deeper I assume from the context of the discussion that you are putting more ink down. True?

• If so, are you increasing the ink density (through the RIP on your 7800 and through the driver on your smaller printer) and re-profiling?

• Are you using the HQ B&W settings in the driver and jacking up the ink densities?

• Or do you mean you are able to add significant density to 3/4 tone – midtone settings of the file itself (which does not put more ink in solid areas once a solid is reached) and still maintain the amount of shadow detail you need?

• Do you know if Museo is planning to sell this paper in rolls?

• Did Museo supply a profile? If so, did it prove to be smooth and accurate?

Thanks in advance. I will contact you off-list about another matter.

Mark Muse
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dandill
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« Reply #29 on: January 22, 2006, 10:00:57 AM »
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I found the profile and downloaded it.
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Crane profiles are here: [a href=\"http://www.crane.com/museo/support.aspx]http://www.crane.com/museo/support.aspx[/url]
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Dan Dill
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« Reply #30 on: January 23, 2006, 08:07:20 AM »
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When talking about getting deep shadow details, I think it's important to point out that Epson drivers have problems here which the paper itself can't solve. Having profiled Epson printers myself (with Eye-One Pro & PMP 5) and also looking at results from other people it appears that the ink curves built into the Epson drivers just behave that way, which is probably a good reason why ImagePrint (& other third party RIPs) are so popular :-)

I'm sure this new paper from Crane is very good, and will be trying it myself when it's available in the UK, but IMO people shouldn't be pinning their hopes on it to solve problems with deep shadow detail that are really due to the Epson driver.

Regards,

Alan
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Mark Muse
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« Reply #31 on: January 25, 2006, 05:01:20 PM »
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The X800 and X600 printers from Epson are quite capable of maintaining shadow detail through the driver. Improvements are needed in paper/ink/profile combinations that will produce higher DMax while at the same time continuing to display subtle tonal variations up through the 3/4 tones.

The Epson driver for the current pro printers (X800, K3) allows for an increase or decrease in the amount of ink being laid down (+/- 50%). Different papers can handle different amounts of ink. This is the basis of my question.

The suggestion that Epson printers need a RIP to produce excellent shadow detail and by extension fine prints is not accurate.

Mark
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Stephenaweiss
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« Reply #32 on: March 12, 2006, 12:01:17 PM »
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Eleanor, wonderful images.

Question: I just bought the Epson 4800. I am trying to avoid the expense of going back and forth between MK and PK inks.

In your experience with the Crane paper, with Epson enhanced matte, and other papers...
can you use just the photo black on a matte paper and be satisfied with the result. Most of my printing so far is on Ultra smooth fine art, and enhanced matte, so I am using matte black ink, but I was hoping I could switch to PK and then be able to use any surface, would appreciate your advice, stephen
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Tonsil
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« Reply #33 on: March 12, 2006, 12:50:55 PM »
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Stephen,

The short and long answers are no. Photo Black will go down on matte paper but you, probably, wont be very happy with the way it looks. Matte and Photo Black exist separately because they each do their respective jobs better than the other.
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eleanorbrown
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« Reply #34 on: March 12, 2006, 12:57:35 PM »
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Stephen, don't even try using photo black on matte papers (at least that's my opinion).  the shadows will look anemic for sure.  Photo black vs matte black is a delimma all of us with the x800 printers have.  It is too expensive to switch back and fourth and time consuming too.  At this time i have decided to dedicate my 7800 to photo black, but this creates a problem for me in that I can't use my favorite matte papers.  From what Michael said about the Hahnemuhle Fine Art Pearl paper that is about to be released, this will give us another great photo black paper option.  Hopefully in the future epson will have printers with the K3 inks that have both matte and photo black permanently installed.  Of course this is no  help to those of us who have already invested in the present generation of printers.  eleanor

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Eleanor, wonderful images.

Question: I just bought the Epson 4800. I am trying to avoid the expense of going back and forth between MK and PK inks.

In your experience with the Crane paper, with Epson enhanced matte, and other papers...
can you use just the photo black on a matte paper and be satisfied with the result. Most of my printing so far is on Ultra smooth fine art, and enhanced matte, so I am using matte black ink, but I was hoping I could switch to PK and then be able to use any surface, would appreciate your advice, stephen
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Brian Gilkes
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« Reply #35 on: March 12, 2006, 04:05:55 PM »
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Eleanor,
I agree, Photoblack on matte papers results in poor D max. I have found this on most papers including Crane Museo (1), Lana, Magnani, Somerset Waterford and Awagami Inbi. These are IMHO among the worlds most beautiful papers, so as I need to print on gloss substrates like Pictorico High Gloss Film and various Lustres,  and thus have Photoblack in the 9800 most of the time , I'm not really happy. I have spent a lot of time and ink trying to get over this, generally by putting down more ink. This works with some images  but not if they have lots of shadow detail. Obviously dragging down the curve decreases shadow separation. Custom profiles do not do much either. Sometimes 2880 dpi helps. With monochrome, tweaks in Advanced B&W or in the Quad Tone RIP are useful.
Why PhotoBlack performs so well on the photo type papers and so poorly on matte and art papers I have not had a satisfactory answer to. Perhaps someone out there could explain it.
As a lot of the black in colour images comes from the denser cyan and magenta in the K3 inkset there might be a way around this . ImagePrint may be on the way but I'm not convinced. I'm also keeping an ear on the ground (are you there Bernard?) for news on Canon's large format 12 colour printers. If they arrive this year and they come up with a linear pigmented inkset, Epson will have to make a move in a similar direction and this will be a quantum leap. Ink prices may even drop. I'm probably excessively optimistic.
In any case my first roll of Museo Silver Rag is expected to clear Customs this week .
As soon as I have a profile and made some prints , I'll post my impressions.
Cheers,
Brian
www.pharoseditions.com.au
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