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Author Topic: Medium format digital vs. Canon 1DsMkII/NikonD2x  (Read 9528 times)
bjornaagedk
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« on: January 03, 2006, 02:09:59 AM »
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Give me 10 good reasons to buy a 25-30.000$ PhaseOne P-back instead of using top digital SLR's like Canon EOS1DsMkII or Nikon D2x !!!

I have the 1DsMkII and also a PhaseOne H20 back for my Hasselblad, and of course there is a difference. I have also tested the P45 and it simply delivers outstanding pixel quality and stunning details.

In a professional studio workflow I prefer the H20 because the files are very high quality and mostly needs no corrections when they are processed in C1Pro. The files from Canon needs a bit more work as sharpening and levels iadjustment, not to mention some dust "cloning" in Photoshop.

On location jobs I have used the 1DsMkII since I bought it a year ago. Before that it was Hasselblad with H20, but I needed thrue wideangle and not only the center of the 40mm lens.

90% of my images are printed in offset max. A4 or A3 and then the difference in image quality (mostly) becomes unvisible, unless you really know what to look for, and 99% of the customers do not!!

So I have a hard time convincing myself that I need the P45. The customers are not willing to pay me more for the P45 quality, they are more than satistfied with the Canon or H20 - quality.
(I have asked my most important customers.)

So why spend 25.000$ for upgrading to P45?

I am afraid that it is me that has a problem!! I remember the days when I used my Hasselblad equipment extensively on location. It is just another "feeling" than shooting with an "ordinary" digital SLR. I guess I want that feeling back.

I think that the bottom line is that I need the P45 (only) to be able to say (to myself) that I can deliver the best (technical) quality possible today!
The customers - they don't care. As long as the images I deliver are creative and professionally  made, they don't care which equipment I use.

So in a view, where the BOTTOM LINE counts, why should I order P45?

Link to a similar story: http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_pag...cid=7-7883-7913
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michael
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« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2006, 09:02:22 AM »
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Seems like you've already answered your own question.

Michael
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bjornaagedk
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« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2006, 09:54:13 AM »
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Seems like you've already answered your own question.

Michael
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Michael, I knew that before I hit the submit button. From a business point of view there is very little reason to buy the P45, because my customers are happy with the quality from H20.

I know this could be an almost endless discussion but would like to hear other photographers view on a situation like mine.
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mikeseb
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« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2006, 10:12:27 AM »
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So in a view, where the BOTTOM LINE counts, why should I order P45?

  So that you'll flood the market with gently used P25 backs, preferably for the Contax, depressing their prices enough that even a cheap schmuck like me can buy one!

Your logic is relentless, sounds like it came from my wife, who is not an ally in my quest to spend $30k on a hobby. She doesn't understand the difference between want (the back) and need (two college funds and retirement before age 90.)
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michael sebastian
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« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2006, 03:37:26 PM »
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So in a view, where the BOTTOM LINE counts, why should I order P45?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=55078\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Are you happy with your current professional arrangement? Do you want to be able to do work for more, new, different clients?  Clients that might be more demanding?  Do you want to expand and enahnce the quality you can supply to potential clients?  There are clients that can tell the difference -- and sometimes even when they don't know what to look for they will see an overall difference.  There are clients out there that care.

As long as you are happy and content churning out offsets in A3 and A4 then don't upgrade.  But if you want more and want to do more, then upgrade.
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bjornaagedk
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« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2006, 10:08:09 PM »
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Are you happy with your current professional arrangement? Do you want to be able to do work for more, new, different clients?  Clients that might be more demanding?  Do you want to expand and enahnce the quality you can supply to potential clients?  There are clients that can tell the difference -- and sometimes even when they don't know what to look for they will see an overall difference.  There are clients out there that care.

As long as you are happy and content churning out offsets in A3 and A4 then don't upgrade.  But if you want more and want to do more, then upgrade.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=55119\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]




Thanks! This is an answer that I can use. It makes me think of the investment in a different way.
I am not trying to excuse myself spending 25.000$, but it IS a lot of money so the decision whether to buy or not isn't easy.
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bjornaagedk
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« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2006, 01:52:31 AM »
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I ordered the P45!!  Will receive it next week.
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Ed Jack
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« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2006, 02:14:53 PM »
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I ordered the P45!!  Will receive it next week.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=55409\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Are you serious.... it seems despite all your umming and arrrrring you were easily convinced by one reply to your thread!  

There is nothing wrong with buying "something better than you need" in terms of clients, if you really can afford it - which you clearly can. I mean you must have your own personal projects or fine art prints where the P45 will be just ACE. Did you try the Aptus 75 too, that seems like a nice package too. I kind of wish Phase One will put that 33MP Dalsa chip in one of their backs eventually. I guess the low power on demand architechture of the Phase back is a bit more elegant than the fan used on  Leaf's backs.. not to mention less things to go wrong  

It is nice to be able to really heavily crop your image down and still be able to turn out A2 prints of an isolated subject from the original image... kind of like a digital zoom without loosing quality (lens issues aside). I believe there is an argument about the perspective being different in a cropped image compared to the same FOV as seen from the full frame image taken though the matching focal length lens for that "full frame image"... ?! I'll let the optics spods fight over that one!

As Michael has put it many times, both the D-SLR market and MF digital markets are getting close to "maturity", with the P45 being as many pixels as most people are ever going to need. Of course MF backs will improve in other areas like better LCD screens/battery life, but image quality alone may stagnate somewhere near the P45. This is especially true if you are sticking to your 645 or 6X6 based camera system. I wouldn't mind seeing a P45 that can shoot at iso 800 though. God alone knows why the P45 doesn't have the pixel binning option like the P25 does.. I mean it is actually a more suitable technique for this back to achieve iso 800, as you have more "pixels to throw away" on binning. I have heard that the noise on the P45 is at least as low as on the P25, so maybe Michael will do a test with  the P45 to see how many stops he can push it before banding appears in the shadows! Anyone done this with a P25 ? What is your "effective iso" now ?

Ed
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bjornaagedk
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« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2006, 12:44:27 PM »
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Are you serious.... it seems despite all your umming and arrrrring you were easily convinced by one reply to your thread!   

There is nothing wrong with buying "something better than you need" in terms of clients, if you really can afford it - which you clearly can. I mean you must have your own personal projects or fine art prints where the P45 will be just ACE. Did you try the Aptus 75 too, that seems like a nice package too. I kind of wish Phase One will put that 33MP Dalsa chip in one of their backs eventually. I guess the low power on demand architechture of the Phase back is a bit more elegant than the fan used on  Leaf's backs.. not to mention less things to go wrong   

It is nice to be able to really heavily crop your image down and still be able to turn out A2 prints of an isolated subject from the original image... kind of like a digital zoom without loosing quality (lens issues aside). I believe there is an argument about the perspective being different in a cropped image compared to the same FOV as seen from the full frame image taken though the matching focal length lens for that "full frame image"... ?! I'll let the optics spods fight over that one!

As Michael has put it many times, both the D-SLR market and MF digital markets are getting close to "maturity", with the P45 being as many pixels as most people are ever going to need. Of course MF backs will improve in other areas like better LCD screens/battery life, but image quality alone may stagnate somewhere near the P45. This is especially true if you are sticking to your 645 or 6X6 based camera system. I wouldn't mind seeing a P45 that can shoot at iso 800 though. God alone knows why the P45 doesn't have the pixel binning option like the P25 does.. I mean it is actually a more suitable technique for this back to achieve iso 800, as you have more "pixels to throw away" on binning. I have heard that the noise on the P45 is at least as low as on the P25, so maybe Michael will do a test with  the P45 to see how many stops he can push it before banding appears in the shadows! Anyone done this with a P25 ? What is your "effective iso" now ?

Ed
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=55865\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Ed.

All I can say is that this thread is a part of my process of making my decision about the P45 investment. I ordered the P30 the same day they was announced, but have now got the P45 instead. But everytime we are talkin above 15.000$ it is a tough decision to make :-)
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gottahabet
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« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2006, 10:33:14 AM »
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Ed.

All I can say is that this thread is a part of my process of making my decision about the P45 investment. I ordered the P30 the same day they was announced, but have now got the P45 instead. But everytime we are talkin above 15.000$ it is a tough decision to make :-)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=56128\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hi Everyone,

I'm new here, but discovered this board last night and have been reading the posts with fascination regarding the digital battle, esp the story about Joey Terrill.  I'm a serious amateur out of L.A. wanting to turn pro, and this issue has been weighing heavily on my mind lately.  I currently shoot with an 8MP Canon 350D, but I've always wanted MF and haven't been able to afford it.  I do have an older Rollei copy TLR that I occasionally shoot 6X6 with, but it's unreliable and not that practical, without interchangeable lenses.

Lately I've been on eBay looking at used Hassies with the intention of buying one to eventually hook up to a digital back (or rent one as needed).  My photography goal is in shooting architecture/interiors and similar commercial work, so I figure I need the most MP I can get for my money (which right now is none).
I've thought about the 5D, which sounds like a great machine but also out of reach financially at 3 grand, let alone the MkII.  This is another reason I'm looking at older Hassies to couple with digital backs.  But from what I'm reading here, many of you (and others on eBay) are ditching Hassies in favor of other systems.

So my questions are:  am I barking up the wrong tree by going for Hassies, considering what I want to shoot?

And more burningly:  is it becoming increasingly more difficult to charge clients a rental fee for the use of digital backs like the P25 or P45?  My teacher at Ucla shoots primarily architecture and rents his back to the clients he shoots for, and he says the back has since paid for itself.  He's replaced the cost of film and processing with a charge for the back.

Lastly:  at what point do 35mm DSLRs and MFs with backs merge in quality (i.e. is the line blurring between them, resolution-wise, or is there a real difference between, say, a Mk II and a MF with P25 back)?  Does all that depend on your eventual photographic intention and result?

I appreciate your input.  Best regards,

Roel Kuiper
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Sheldon N
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« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2006, 06:52:03 PM »
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If you are looking for a whole lot of good information on this and other issues related to Medium Format digigtal backs, go to the Rob Galbraith website, and read the Medium Format Digital forum. It's main working pro's discussing techniques and gear.

It has a wealth of information on this subject. Especially pay attention to Mark Tucker and James Russell's posts.

Hope this helps!

Sheldon
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gottahabet
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« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2006, 12:46:46 AM »
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Sheldon, thanks a lot for the tip!  You're right, their posts are very informative, and perhaps I'll post my quandary on that forum as well to see what those guys would have to say.

Cheers,
Roel
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