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Author Topic: Why is this a good thing?  (Read 20174 times)
Schewe
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« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2006, 12:44:35 PM »
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I share many of John DeMott's concerns, and I think most reasonable Photoshop users would also be concerned at *possible* unbundling of key parts of Photoshop.
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I'm not at all worried about that...Lightroom will continue to be developed as a "metadata editor" and Photoshop will continue as a pixel editor-most of the respective features will be based upon one or the other emphasis. The one thing that will happen is that Bridge will continue to expand it's role toward more of the other apps in the Creative Suite but even then, more stuff will be added for dealing with images in spite of the dev of Lightroom.

The big boon is that now, Camera Raw is becoming even MORE important as it continues to expand the role it plays in Lightroom, Bridge and Photoshop–which is a good thing for people shooting RAW as it means even more R&D and resources will be invested by Adobe. Perhaps no, they can finally get Thomas Knoll some HELP!

:~)
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61Dynamic
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« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2006, 01:16:45 PM »
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The battle lines have been drawn here between Apple and Adobe and their respective partisans/agents(think of the Empire Strikes Back), and it will be absolutely fascinating to watch how this plays out in the marketplace. Hard to handicap the battle for supremacy, though based upon their track records, Apple seems to be a better bet to succeed in creating an elegant, user friendly interface. What I do know is that we will all benefit from the intense competition.
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However, if history indicates anything it won't be until V5 of Aperture before is top-dog.
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Paul Sumi
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« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2006, 01:55:48 PM »
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The big boon is that now, Camera Raw is becoming even MORE important as it continues to expand the role it plays in Lightroom, Bridge and Photoshop–which is a good thing for people shooting RAW as it means even more R&D and resources will be invested by Adobe. Perhaps no, they can finally get Thomas Knoll some HELP!

:~)
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Jeff, I agree entirely.  I'm using Capture One fo RAW development now, but a next gen ACR would get serious consideration from me.

Paul
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hcubell
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« Reply #23 on: January 12, 2006, 05:15:14 PM »
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However, if history indicates anything it won't be until V5 of Aperture before is top-dog.
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That's OK for me, as it will probably be right around the time that the whole medium format digital thing shakes out and settles down so that I can in good conscience buy a $30K medium format digital back and stop scanning medium format film.  
I don't use it, but how long did it take Apple to get Final Cut Pro right?
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61Dynamic
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« Reply #24 on: January 12, 2006, 07:06:45 PM »
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That's OK for me, as it will probably be right around the time that the whole medium format digital thing shakes out and settles down so that I can in good conscience buy a $30K medium format digital back and stop scanning medium format film. 
I don't use it, but how long did it take Apple to get Final Cut Pro right?
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[a href=\"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Cut_Pro]According to the Wikipedia[/url], it came out in 1998 and first started to break into the feature film market in 2001 (with v3).
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Schewe
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« Reply #25 on: January 12, 2006, 08:29:03 PM »
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I don't use it, but how long did it take Apple to get Final Cut Pro right?
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Final Cut Pro had a long and storied past...the basic concept of FCP was Randy's idea to replace the metafore for Adobe Premier. Adobe shut it down and Randy left Adobe and went to Macromedia where a lot of ex-Adobe employees have taken refuge over the years. Macromedia went throu a really tough period well before the .com bust-later 1990's-Macromedia and Randy shopped FCP around for a while (I think about 1 year or so). It was rumored that several companies were in the hunt including MSFT before Apple (Steve Jobs had just come back then) swooped in and scooped it up.

I was on the Apple CAB (Customer Advisory Board) and first saw a demo in 1997. I don't do editing so I didn't really know what I was looking at...but all the film guys on the CAB were creaming...at the time, Steve Jobs had just "Steved" the 6 PCI slot Mac and ended the Mac clones. Avid and Media 100 were seriously considering leaving (or did leave) the Mac space, so that's why Final Cut Pro was SO important to Apple at the time.

Randy is a talented guy...I seriously suspect photographers will enjoy the next couple of years seeing the rate of advance and development in software...it's about time too, the camera companies have been making HUGE leaps-even if their proprietary raw file format strategy sucks...

I'm in no way anti-Apple or Aperture...I'm clearly in the camp of Adobe. But as I indicated elsewhere, Silicon Valley makes for strange bedfellows...
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hcubell
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« Reply #26 on: January 12, 2006, 09:39:00 PM »
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I'm in no way anti-Apple or Aperture...I'm clearly in the camp of Adobe. But as I indicated elsewhere, Silicon Valley makes for strange bedfellows...
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Strange bedfellows, indeed.  I just hope you did not take offense at my refernce to you as one of the Evil Empire's Storm Troopers, but I thought for sure you would be part of the Rebellion.  
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John Camp
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« Reply #27 on: January 13, 2006, 12:22:56 PM »
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I was happy to see Lightroom because Adobe seems to respond well to the needs of photographers, and we *really* need a cross-platform visually-oriented data-base program specifically made for photographers. I've tried a couple of the other data-base programs, and they seem to be made for data-base users, rather than photographers. I had high hopes for Aperture, but so far, that has been disappointing, and I'm also somewhat wary of the fact that Aperture is apparently going to be an Mac-only app. Aperture also worries me a bit because like other Apple products, there seems to be an emphasis on coolness rather than function, and a photo data-base should be about function above all.

I also like the idea that Lightroom is a discrete program. That actually helps me organize my thinking in some way -- Photoshop has grown into such a huge, complex program, that I sometimes become confused about how to do what I want to do. I prefer the situation of being in Lightroom (so now I'm organizing and finding) and now I'm in Photoshop (so I'm fixing and cutting and pasting.) It may sound weird to the computer-adept, but the simple fact that there are two programs helps me out.

I would hope that Adobe brings in Lightroom at a reasonable price, but that may be a forlorn hope. If they've got a good underlying data-base program, and if they are really sensitive to what photographers need, and if THEY KEEP IT SIMPLE, STUPID, they will probably become the standard. Then they will probably become expensive.

JC
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Ray Maxwell
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« Reply #28 on: February 05, 2006, 09:17:09 PM »
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John, I agree with you.  Lightroom and Aperture are not for me.  

I have tried Lightroom and read all I can about Aperture.  These applications seem optimized for first time users (Modal step interface design) and photographers who do large volumes of images with minimal work on each image.  This is fine for wedding photographers or photojournalists, but that is not my bag.  

I am an artistic print maker.  I spend at least 30 mins on every image I print.  I want the control and tools in Adobe Bridge, Adobe Camera RAW, and Photoshop.  I do a lot of B&W from my Leaf Valeo 22 and Canon 5D.  I use the channel mixer, Levels, Curves, and the Highlights and Shadows filter to get exactly the tonality that I want. I do that on every image.  I build masks and do a lot of selective work on many images.

Ansel Adams would not use Lightroom.  Given the work he did per print and the his Zone System, I am sure he would want all the control he could get.

I like the ability to put all of the pallets on my second monitor and get at any command in a instant.  I don't like the modal design where I have to switch from one mode to the next.  Of course I have to switch from Bridge to Photoshop.  I would hope for even more integration in future versions of Bridge and Photoshop.

To each his own.  I hope Adobe continues to develop in both directions.  One size does not fit all.

I am somewhat puzzled by Michael’s enthusiasm for this application, given the type of photography he does.  I have always assumed he did as much postproduction work per print as I do.  Perhaps he does all the work before he clicks the shutter.  I am not that good yet.  

Ray
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michael
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« Reply #29 on: February 05, 2006, 09:38:16 PM »
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Over the past couple of years I have found that I do 90% of my image processing in Camera Raw and very little in Photoshop itself.

Lightroom has everything that Camera Raw has, and then some – such as the superior Grayscale conversion and much more intuative and easy to use Curves tool.

And when you then add printing capability with the power of a RIP (in terms of layout), a slide show, keywording, cataloging, archiving etc. By the time it comes out as a shipping product this fall Lightroom will provide in one program the most important features of Photo Mechanic for file ingesting, Camera Raw for raw processing, Iview Media Pro for cataloging, the ability to apply raw control equivalents to non-raw files, superior printing and on and on and.... all in one program.

Frankly, it's a breath of fresh air. Not to mention the opportunity that almost everyone currently has to provide Adobe with input on features that they'd like to see.

Yes, I'm enthusiastic about Lightroom. I think that within the next couple of years Lightroom and Aperture will dominate the image processing scene for photographers. Photoshop will still have a role, but for many these two new programs will be all that's needed.

Michael
« Last Edit: February 06, 2006, 07:55:47 AM by michael » Logged
Ray
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« Reply #30 on: February 05, 2006, 10:59:08 PM »
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Hhmm! I'm quite enamoured of the idea of doing as much processing as needed in the RAW converter. Perhaps this is a major reason for my favouring RSP over ACR. I can go straight from RawShooter to Qimage and make a satisfyingly good print, with some images anyway. Other images might need some selective lightening and darkening in PS, but getting most of the work done at the conversion stage seems a better way to me.

I look forward to being able to use the lightroom finished product. Since I'm not a Mac user, I don't feel I can have much useful input at this stage.
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jani
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« Reply #31 on: February 06, 2006, 09:23:16 AM »
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Lightroom has everything that Camera Raw has, and then some – such as the superior Grayscale conversion and much more intuative and easy to use Curves tool.
Uhm, but Lightroom does not currently have:

 - the crop tool
 - the straightening tool

Unless I've somehow managed to overlook a less-than-obvious control for this (it certainly isn't in the menus ).
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Jan
michael
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« Reply #32 on: February 06, 2006, 09:47:16 AM »
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Beta 2 does.  

Patience. Patience.

Michael
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DarkPenguin
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« Reply #33 on: February 06, 2006, 09:47:44 AM »
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Uhm, but Lightroom does not currently have:

 - the crop tool
 - the straightening tool

Unless I've somehow managed to overlook a less-than-obvious control for this (it certainly isn't in the menus ).
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I'll check the windows version and see if it has that....  Nope.
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jani
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« Reply #34 on: February 06, 2006, 09:56:08 AM »
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Beta 2 does. 
I feel it's almost entirely appropriate to yell "you bastaaard!" here.

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Patience. Patience.
I'm not a grasshopper!

This reminds me that I should set aside the time for testing the program a bit more thoroughly and provide useful feedback on the Adobe Lightroom forums.
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Jan
miamitom
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« Reply #35 on: March 14, 2006, 11:53:50 AM »
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I guess I should have posted the following here first ... since my comment is a mild RANT!!
In todays world of working on the road with your laptop, location shoots for stills and film, being restricted to a particular location for your files is ...... ancient and KLUDGY!!!!
The next thing you know Adobe and Apple will want you to have 14inch platters to store data or .... PUNCH CARDS! AND only buy the cards from IBM!
There are lots of thrid party programs and plug ins that are worlds ahead of Lightroom and Apature .... AND some are even FREE!!!!
I am .... well more or less speachless.
Just MHO.
Tom
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bob mccarthy
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« Reply #36 on: March 14, 2006, 02:29:06 PM »
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I'll check the windows version and see if it has that....  Nope.
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You really caught me on this one!!!!!

I was looking all over the Lightroom site for it....

Then I realized........

bob
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gryffyn
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« Reply #37 on: March 16, 2006, 10:23:16 AM »
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I'll check the windows version and see if it has that....  Nope.

Windows version?  When was that released???

And where can it be found?

I hear it's hosted on the Apple site....  
« Last Edit: March 16, 2006, 10:24:14 AM by gryffyn » Logged

.....Andrzej
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